Episode 116: Becoming a Healthy Male Role Model for Yourself, Your Partner, Your Children and Your Community w/ Nic Warner

“There’s a reason brotherhood feels confronting: it won’t let you stay the same.”

This one’s for the men who are tired of playing a role.
And for the women who are tired of watching them pretend.

In today’s episode, I sat down with my brother, Nick Warner, a father, men’s facilitator, and one of the most grounded, embodied leaders I know. We get into the shadow side of men’s work, the trap of emotional dumping, the chaos of Neo-Tantra, and the slow, sacred work of actually becoming trustworthy.

We talk about fatherhood as initiation, the pressure to perform polarity, and why true devotion has nothing to prove.

This isn’t about masculine aesthetic.
This is about leadership, when no one’s watching.

🔥 Here’s What We Dive Into:

• The illusion of freedom in “uncommitted” masculine identity
• Why polyamory & open relating often mask intimacy wounds
• The knight vs. king archetypes — and how men get stuck performing
• Spiritual bypassing in men’s work and Neo-Tantra spaces
• The line between sacred vulnerability vs. emotional collapse
• What real devotion looks like in fatherhood and marriage
• How brotherhood humbles and forges the masculine path
• The question that ends the performance: Who do you serve?

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Transcript

0:00

There's an illusion of freedom that comes to the immature masculine that if I'm married or if I have more money, or if I have more women or whatever it is, that I will be more free. And it is just an illusion, because you'll never be free. This whole world of. The tone of the polyamory and the open relating and it's all it all steeps from a deeper wounding of fear, of intimacy and a fear of commitment and a fear of abandonment and you'll never be more free than when you were married to a woman that loves you and not loves you in a way that she needs something from you, but loves you in a way that you can be free. Yo yo yo lovers. Welcome, welcome, welcome to sex, love and everything in between. Where the O'Neals. You're here with Meg and Jacob. And this is the place we have really uncensored conversations about sex, intimacy and relationships. Well, super excited you're here. Enjoy this episode. Yo, yo, lovers. Welcome, welcome. Welcome back to another episode of sex, love and everything in between. Meg is just waking up her, and you're about to head to the markets, and I'm dropping in with my bro Nick Warner. This man is, Yeah, an incredible facilitator. He's someone that I've been watching from afar. And after seeing his last few posts over on Instagram and seeing how he's holding the frame for the depth of the teachings that he's delivering, that for me says a lot about a man. It's easy to post out the the formulas of polarity or just ChatGPT, or grab someone else's sayings, or take David Data's stuff and repurpose it as your own. But what I really take from this man, and what I really look for when I'm bringing people on to this podcast, is someone who doesn't just say the things he's actually willing to have the conversation and take it to a depth that he's embodying not just in his work, but in his relationship, in the way that he parents, in the way that he moves through the world. So, bro, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks, man. It's good to be here. Amazing amazing man I'd love to kick it straight off. We'll start with the polarity stuff because it's it's it's it's trendy. It's cool. But then what's it been like for you in your, you know your journey with some of these like key concepts that I'm sure you guys teach. You've just come out of retreat as well. I know you guys have been teaching some, some solid stuff over there with the 13 Pines. Is am I right in saying that? That's correct. Yeah. The 13 Pines stuff that you guys are doing. So, some of these key concepts that are really foundational for, for men to understand what's your journey been like with, say like polarity and some of these like, more key concepts that we're, we're aware of? Yeah. I mean, it was definitely not something I ever understood growing up, nor was I taught it. And I grew up with a, my parents are both together. They're amazing. I love them dearly. We have an incredible relationship. But growing up, it was very different. And dad was emotionally unavailable. And, mom kind of took more of the leadership role within the relationship. And. I, you know, I didn't have a healthy male role model. So I kind of all of these quote unquote toxic masculinity that was around the more dominant shadow masculinity I really wanted to steer clear from. And in doing so, I kind of cut myself off from any kind of masculine, energetic, and ended up really having a lot of female friends and being a mummy's boy and not wanting to step into a role of leadership, because I didn't want to be seen as dominant. And, you know, my relationships failed dramatically. And, it took it my marriage to fail for me to really kind of was like that rock bottom that a lot of men need to just be like, oh, shit. Actually, I can't figure this out by myself. And I spent three and a bit years traveling the world, just really touching on all of the things that lit me up and excited me and scared me and the things that I thought would benefit me. And towards the very end of that journey, I ended up reading David Diary for the first time. And it's like, fuck me, where was this 15 years ago? Because I didn't have purpose and I didn't have. I wasn't decisive, and all of these really simple little traits that can really create safety in a relationship I just didn't have. And I was relying on my woman to to do it for me. And so I got into it and I really I spent a lot of time part of my journey was to heal my own sexuality and, you know, porn addiction and erectile dysfunction, premature ejaculation, all the really fun things to have as a guy. And I got into this world of neo tantra and full bodied orgasms and oh, wow, this is amazing. And kind of this skill set that allowed me to. Be better at certain things. And other men and I would find myself in these situations where. You know, there's neo tantra worlds where healthy masculinity is not really prevalent, but the guy knows what to say and he knows how to touch, and he knows all these really, it's kind of the shadow, the shadow magician just at work. And, and I got into men's work and I realized, well, I realized my shadows are not from. Oh, fuck, that's what I do wrong, but from men. So I brought out a line, and this really allowed me to reflect on where I was at. And years later, I made a woman who does what I do excel with women, and holds a very sharp sword. And, Oracle is refined and her her depth is incredible. And she's the softest, most devotional, most loving woman. And her oracle is fierce. And it was just this really profound calling forward that I needed. And we have, a deeply passionate, deeply loving relationship. And it's just it gets better and better and, it is in part because we both understand polarity and, man, so many nuggets in there that men especially, the, the, you know, when you said that part of me I like when you read David data for me, it was like it was literally like everything that I'd ever needed to know about my relationships all just started to fall in on me. It was if it was just this cascade of awareness, it was, And I don't talk about moments too much, but for me, I remember reading the first chapter of Intimate Communion and being like, fuck, Holy shit, man, the I'd been denying a whole aspect of myself, the part that would feed me. So when I did that, man, like, yeah, I can, I can only imagine that that was, you know, a really cool sequence of events following that. I'd love to, you know, pointing to that neo tantra, you know, I came through, plant medicine heavily like that was my, my, my doorway into awareness or deeper understanding of life and I have seen that world be, you know, I've seen the dark and the shadow play out, especially in that that that magician, as you said, the dark shadow of the magician. I've seen the manipulator come out and I've seen men use words where, where you know, where the outfit moves in a posture that is, performing as the thing. And then just I've, I've watched I've watched them cycle through women and cycle through communities and create absolute mayhem. For me, I also felt that I didn't really understand much of my medicine work or integrate it until I stepped into a men's men's retreat, and I actually had men like, give me honest feedback about where I was actually at, not about where my spiritual ego had soared above everyone else. Do you do you have anything to say on that? Men like, do you have anything to like, you know, just jam on, you know, you said your experience of it from the, you know, from the collective. If you have an opinion, I'd love to. I'd love to hear it. On how you see people getting stuck in one or the other, or even guys that get super men's work heavy and then they just become too rigid. I'd love to hear because I've seen that as well. Like the what? I've been to some retreats, and it's taken me a month to get over the physical torture that I've been put through. So I'd love to know your perspective on, you know, how we can, or what you say and how it can potentially bring more rhythm so we can create more centered men rather than these men that are more manipulative. All these men that are super, super dogmatic and rigid, yeah, I, I spent many years in the medicine world also and served combo for many years and still do and in that process and in that experience. So through that experience I you get to see the kind of the dark and the light. And then what kind of what fascinated me more was the, was it's not it's even happening in men's work. So anything it's kind of this, this social media society that we have where somebody has an experience of say something online and they're like, I can, I can do that. And they go off and and, you know, they serve medicine even though they've never been taught how they run a men's retreat just because they did a breathwork session once. And they can run an ice bath, and there's all of these really. Unqualified people leading people through experience where they really have no, no kind of. No basis for it. And, it was actually a shaman that said, because we're talking about Cambo and how, you know, everybody who is now serving Cambo at this point and, and I met a guy, he had received the medicine three times, and it worked, you know, eight out of ten times. It's the same thing. And for him, it worked the same three times. He's like, cool, I'll serve his medicine now. And he went around and. He served a woman who her face swelled up like quite severely. And he freaked out because he'd never seen it before, and because her facilitator was freaking out of what was happening to her. Obviously, she started freaking out and I was like, man, how many times have you slept with his medicine? He's like three. I'm like, don't you think you should do it a bit more before you go around and offering it to others? It's like, nah, it's just your opinion. Like it is you're own. It's just my opinion. But. I think there is a karma that brings people into doing things that potentially they're not ready for, and they karma for the people that seek out people that aren't ready to be serving it. And there is something there's some kind of a relationship in that for those people. And similarly, you know, this and maybe it's just the because I'm in the field, but so many men do men's work and there's no lineage from it. There's no it doesn't come from anything. They've gone off, they've had an experience and they're like, right, I can do this. And to the point where I've had women come to me and say, I would never date a man that does men's work because he cannot hold himself energetically or emotionally. So he's had this experience where he's cracked himself open or been cracked open, and now suddenly the, you know, I need to be emotional because that's what women want. I need to be vulnerable because that's what women want. And then. The result of that is a relationship where she's holding him more so than the other way around. And then the polarities for, so, you know, if you go to any modality that you're seeking out, just make sure that the person that is serving or teaching or whatever is actually qualified and there's a there is a lineage that it comes from because that's where the medicine comes from. That's where the transmission comes in. Yeah, man. When you said lineage, I the word that came into my my body was humility. When there's a lineage, there's humility rather than I'm the I am the guru, I'm the shaman, I'm the I'm the one that's going to save the world. And I know personal development perpetuates this, you know, fake it til you make it stop before you're ready. And when we go towards the path of depth, rather than expansion or more, what I've been learning is that it's, If you really are serious about walking this path, it's it's a lifelong path. Therefore, there is going to be, it's going to be a lot longer than the next three months or your yearly mastermind. So I've learned to seek out people that have connection to certain lineages and to actually be a student. Whilst I am learning to lead the people that I'm leading. And that's been incredibly humbling. We had, like at our training, we have, one of my bro's. He's a bit older than me, a bit further along than me. His name's Villon and he works. You know, he's land that we do the work on, and he just is so for me, it feels I'm so humbled by his presence. And it's like he's got a lineage back to, you know, his teachers. And he speaks about them so deeply and with such honor and reverence. And and it's like, there's no, you know, yeah, there's identity and ego in the space, but it's not leading the space. And I found that to be really, really beautiful. And, yeah, same sort of thing. I've watched people in the medicine world. And to be honest, man, I'm a bit of a fiery dude. And like, for me, I just want to punch them. Like, I'm just like, I have a negative tolerance. Like I'm in the red when it comes to that sort of stuff. Because I live on the Gold Coast, you know, I'm around it, around the bright lights of, everyone's a coach, everyone's. Everyone's a shaman at the moment, so. And the Northern Rivers here in Australia. But yeah, for me, I get really I, and I think this is, you know, my, my medicine too that I have to sit with is like for me, it's so sacred. Like, this work is so important to me that when I see someone, utilizing it or working with it in a way that isn't at the depth that I think they should be, or that isn't where I see it should be, you know, where they that they step overstepping their leadership. I get really, really frustrated because to me it's like, nah, man, you don't know this. You must understand that this work that we're doing is not just it's not just for dollars, like there's there's a big a prayer up, you know, in place for what we're doing. So yeah, man, like seeking out some older dudes to just, you know, cool me off and just say, hey, bro, it's okay. It's okay. Like, that's been the biggest, biggest lesson this last year for me is like finding older dudes that can just be like, Jacob, it's okay. It's not. It's you just stay in your lane, focus on what you what you're doing. Don't get on your high horse and just keep taking the next step. So that's been huge for me, man, because I know yeah, I, I don't have as much grace, when it comes to that sort of stuff, I just get all my face clench up and I'm like, oh, and I'm on a rumble. I read this, this quote years ago, the warrior, the trust. His own path doesn't have to question anyone else's. And it's yeah, there's this guys doing all kinds of it's like, well, it doesn't resonate, but that's okay. That's the thing. And now I've been with my teacher now for 5 or 6 years, and I'm still going and I'm finding different modalities and I'm going to therapy. Eight months ago, for the first time. It is fucking blowing my mind. Like whenever anybody mentioned it, I was like, now I rather just drink ayahuasca to breathwork session or somebody and but the slow burn is just is revealing shit about my life that I just had no idea. And I was always, always against it. And, you know what? You resist persists. And that fear of or the resistance to doing anything is the gateway to the next level of life. And this thing has has cracked me open in ways that I never imagined and nothing else could do for me. So, yeah, I mean, this is I didn't get into this to make money. I didn't even realize fucking coaching men was the thing. I was working as an architect, and, like, this was my thing. And I love drawing and that was just. That was life. And then I got into this because I needed it. I figured out how to have full bodied orgasms because I couldn't get a hard dick like it was. You know, everything came from my own pain. And at some point, it just. I was like, well, okay, I'll. I'll scratch that itch and I'll do this and I'll, you know, go in to, in these places because I need it for me. And then at some point someone's like, yo, can you teach me that? And I, I guess, yeah. And then it became more and more and more, and now it's my life is, is the you know, we did this practice with John once about the what's your purpose when you stand in front of a man and, and you're looking deep in the eye and you share your purpose, and he looks at you and he gives, three. Yeah. And you say it again, and he's like, two. And you say it again. It's like oh four and you and you keep refining and keep refining it. And I can't remember what I started on. Something about to liberate the hearts of all men or something was my purpose. And he looks at me just like three. I'm like, fuck. And what I ended on was something like, to liberate my own heart so my son can live free. And by the time I got to this, he was fucking weeping and he's just like turned to end and I'm just like oh kind of repeating and repeating and it was just like, that's it man. I don't do this for money. And I don't do this for any other reason other than for my own journey and my own healing. And the beauty of that is that it actually benefits everyone else. Yeah, man, that like when you said that, I've. Yeah. Goosebumps. I've only just become a dad in the last six months. So like it's it's just amplified all of it and amplified every fucking thing, every fucking, and yeah, when you said the first one, I was like, oh, that sounds fucking cool. And then the second version of like to liberate my own heart. So my son maybe can can live free. It's like, that's to me. And I don't use this word, loosely, but like, yeah, that feels like a deep prayer. Like, that's coming from somewhere deeper than that. I, you know, that's that that's just such a beautiful statement. Yeah, yeah. And you don't, you don't get that through breathwork and ice baths. That's, you know, John was a student of David's for many, many years. And in that whole lineage is there's something so deeply profound about it all. And, Yeah, man, I, I've jumped on a few of, David Data's online courses that he's done, and, like, just his sharpness, like, I, we were doing a breathing, and I remember, like, I kept on, like, getting to a point where I'd like my body would move, and I was like, oh, is that me processing something or what? And what do you like? He could. He literally was watching. He's like, there is a you there's a blockage in this part of your spine. Roll your shoulders back, relax your the back of your heart. And now breathe. And from that just just from his. That just shot was like I was like, Holy shit. Wow. And I just was able to just be like, I, without even knowing me or ask me any questions was that. And I've been on a few of John's calls and I've been in his, virtual workshop as well, just taking so much for me. I think, because I have been such a seeker at times when I've really when something really lands, it's just so nourishing. So I've been really I love I love the work by both of those guys. And, you know, I had Alan on the call and it's been a very similar it was a very similar conversation. Just deep, honest, authentic. It's just like, oh, that's that's the type of that that to me really is the man that I want to seen in most men around the world. I want to feel I want to feel them. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. There was a, I went to a retreat in Florida last year and David came and just to sit in the presence of him and to listen to him speak, you know, you it's it's something that shifts how you, it shifts. You're being like there's something so deeply profound. It's kind of like any spiritual master. When you spend time, you. I remember I was living in Australia, the Dalai Lama came out and just his presence in the space shifted. And, and that's they're the people that you want to learn from. Yeah, man, it feels like they've got. Yeah, there's a lineage there. Like he said, it feels like it's coming from something. It's coming through them. But coming from somewhere. Yeah. We do the we do it. We do a sweat lodge. At our training with the line, and he and he leads it. And it's a beautiful experience because we come out of a deep night of, like that, that inquiry that you were talking about with the purpose. We do something similar in a very altered state, the medicines or anything. But, like, we just take the men into this, over and over again asking the same question, the same question, and getting them to share and share. And they start to see their loops. They start to see that they're talking about the same 5 or 10 things just with different words or different characters. And, they come out of that into the sweat. And it's a beautiful sweat because they all start to crack and start to like, bring that deep prayer through and, yeah, just the way the valley, like the land's beautiful energy in the space and that, that frequency. And then we're on this land. Yeah. This land has been really, really well looked after and hasn't been, hasn't been overused. And I don't know if you spent a lot of time in the Northern rivers, at all, but, like, there's a lot of land that has been overused and abused from a, a healing sense. A lot of people are just continually taking, taking from the land and using, using, using, different modalities and medicines. And it doesn't feel like it's ever that, like, right relationship with the with we've actually giving back. So for me to be on that land like that was such a beautiful experience. And all of the men that came through that were like, well, I've never really actually felt this, that like, oh, I've like, I've understood this, but I haven't felt this, this depth. And I think that for me, that's where the big part that I really want to, you know, keep men's work tethered to is the depth and not get lost in the rah rah, which when you were sharing around the therapy, I think I want to sort of circle back to that, if that's okay. I got into the I got into the habit of there, like kind of like the roller coaster mindset or the theme park mindset for a little while where I was like, every week I've got to be initiating myself and the initiation has to be big and it has to blow me apart and explode, mean I have to be inwardly cracked open. And what I learned from doing that was that I didn't actually leave space for integration. And I started to avoid consistency and discipline, and I started to become less and less, grounded. And that was something that I started to realize. It was like, oh, where is my discipline? Where is my consistency? Where is the where am I finding beauty in the mundane, right. And for me, that's come through fitness. Like the last six months, I've been on like a fitness journey, which I said I'd never do, but I was like, I'm never going to have a personal trainer. I'll never track macros. I'll never do any of that. That's not for me. And I had such an ego around it, such a a resistance to it. And the moment I said yes to it, I was like, oh, this is what this is the thing. This is the actual thing that's going to take me to the next level, not another ayahuasca ceremony. No, I do not need to go and breathe my head off. Like I actually just need to wake up and eat the right foods, go to the gym, lift some heavy weights, come home, do my work. Be with my son. Be with my wife. Where can I bring a rhythm of beauty to the mundane? Where can I start to see the beauty in the. In the moments that I think are big enough or crazy enough? And it was it's been it's been probably one of the most humbling six months in my life to really just be with the, you know, the routine of life. Is that something that you see in men's work or that you see, have you seen that in yourself? Or is there any way that you you balance that, that kind of like when a man needs to be initiated, but then when a man needs to do the chopping wood and carrying water and how both actually can be just as profound. Yeah. I mean, I'll speak to my own experience because that was my life for many years. It was I was single and it was like, what's the next biggest thing? What's the next initiation I'm gonna do? What's the next ceremony? Whatever the next thing is? And, and then the ultimate one was to become a father and everything stopped. And it was like, okay, so how do I now hone in my life to be in full service to what the present moment needs without trying to escape it? Because it's fucking uncomfortable and. It's, you know, it hasn't been smooth, but, I've never had such a deep desire to provide financially as when I became a father. And then suddenly, well, that's great, but half your time's going, so then there's this, I want to work because I love it, and I need to make money, and I need to do the thing. But I also need to be with my son, and I can be present with him, or I can be with him and trying to be on my phone, working at the same time. And then we both lose. And it's just this, how can I let go of the way that I want things to be so they can be the way that life needs them to be in the moment? And that has been a humbling experience. But like, I've been doing this work on myself for ten years and father would fucking rock me. It absolutely rock me. And I see why there are so many fatherless families. Like, a woman will get pregnant and she will be pregnant in preparation to give birth, and then she'll give birth in preparation for motherhood. And then she breastfeeds and goes through that process as a part of motherhood. And men are just like, yeah, I'm pretty good. And then suddenly your father and boom, like, there, really there isn't the same preparation needed for men and. You know, it's it's the hardest ceremony and the, the greatest masculine practice I've ever been in. And it just, it's a constant refinement of me. How can I let go of what I want? To give the moment what it needs. Very, very relatable. Extremely relatable. Man. I love it. You know I love having guys over. I'm like yes I can, I can you're going to validate my experience a little bit like I'm like yes. And I'm not alone. I'm not fucking batshit crazy with I'd love to talk about that. Because literally last night my, my wife and I, Meg was lying down or she was asleep and we're like, how are we going to fucking both work? We both love what we both love our businesses and make, make, make makes a god. And then she said, absolutely, Jay, when it comes to what she does, and I love supporting her and really, really breathing, you know, breathing life into the fire that, you know, the burns within her to serve women and similar to what you said, the desire to provide financially right now has never been more alive in me than ever, to the point where I can't really. I've had a really hard time switching off, and it's a huge it's a deep subconscious, like it's deep in my subconscious. And, I literally had to go and like, I was like, I'm. I'm going mad. I'm. I'm actually going mad. Something is like, I'm about to sell something. I'm literally about to go mental. And I had a call with a lady, and she's an intuitive god. And I was like, I just need someone to tell me just to confirm what I think I'm thinking or what I feel like I'm feeling. You know, this, you see this lady lately and she's like, what if actually slowing down and being with the moment was the thing that would allow you to provide what is actually needed, rather than what you think is needed. And I was like, fuck, shit. And I was like, and then before that, even before that, I had this, like this thing popped into my head. I was like, a baby doesn't even know what $1 million is like. A baby doesn't even know what. The baby just knows what's here right now. And I was like, okay, cool. Do your work, Jacob. Yes. Make your money and be responsible and don't fuck about. That's so, you know, don't don't be a dickhead. But also allow yourself the grace to be where you're at. And that was huge for me, man. After. After she said that, I was like, oh, okay. Someone else. I just needed someone outside of me to remind me of that. And, the beauty of that is that I've actually let go more than ever in my business, and in that I've found ways of working that are ten times more efficient. I've let go of needing clients, needing this person, that person, this person. I've allowed myself to become deeper and more magnetic. And then from there, my my, my, my transmission of my truth is flowing so much more. Yeah. So much more gracefully into the world. And then there's this resonance. So it's been it's been a crazy experience for me, man. Like to to really feel that that provides should come online and like, I've got to fucking do this now. I'm working every single day. And then for Meg to be like, hey, I actually want to work as well. What's the rhythm? That's true for this, for the family nervous system. And then also, when are we going to be fucking when are we going to be like, going? When, when are we going to be doing some, you know, when are we. Because we're still lovers. Right. So there's this beautiful, probably the most, the deepest embodiment practice for my masking right now is like, how could I actually hold it all without needing it to look a different way or needing me to compartmentalize? Okay, I work for the next seven months, and then at Christmas time, we can have a conversation. Now let's be with what is, yeah, man. So thank you for sharing. And I apologize for jumping in and rambling, but I just I feel very, very understood right now with what you just said. So thank you. Yeah. I mean, I'm in the exact same position. Like Sarah works. She does what I do, but with women and she's amazing. And she has a set number of retreats a year, and she has a one on one clients, and she has a program and I will travel. You know, we were just in Portugal recently so she could run a retreat. And I was there being a daddy. I'm currently in Austin. I go to California tomorrow. She's going to fly with my boy to California, and we're going to spend a few days together. And then I go into training and she'll be there with me. Because this is a life and it's not. How do we change our life? So we're kind of confined and constrained to something that is not us, but how can we actually create, you know, we we need to shift some things, but how can we create a life that we love doing? We love in a way that serves love as a and we are going to travel. You know, my son's brain is eight months old and he's been to probably seven countries, and he's, and that's just this is going to be our life. Like, we travel a lot and, that's not going to change just because we're now a family. So, I need to really. She's done it really well. She she works very little, and she makes more money than she's ever made, and, And I need to, well, not need to I do, I honor that, and I honor the the part of her that desires that and longs for that. And, I mean, I don't know if you've ever spent time alone with your kid for an extended period of time. It is exhausting. And to, you know, she's being at home now is every day is by herself. And it's like the the honor that I have for her and her commitment to that. And as a mother is just beyond and it just it really we're really we're doing well. We're doing very well especially is around intimacy and and love and connection and depth of the relationship. So that's helpful. Yeah man. It sounds like you haven't really compromised your values. You've and you've chosen to like, welcome your child into your world and bring him in. And that's something that Megan, I've been practicing relatively well, it's like, oh, welcome to our life, man. This is how we live it. Rather than be like, now you're here, we have to adjust everything, and we have to turn and completely revolve around you and your. Now the the the thing which doesn't feel right in that I don't it doesn't feel right. I don't I don't have the data or the, the words for it. But for Megan, I'd like, Megan wanted to go to New York to visit her sister, and I was like, my love, go for it. I'm like, I'm in. I'm in mission mode. And I've got some big things leading into that, and I need to be at home. But if you want to get in New York, go in for ten days here in ocean. And her mother went to New York and visited her sister. And they had an absolute bull. And I was like, for me to actually have the capacity to say, my love, go, go to New York, have time with your family, take out a 5 or 6 month old son. I was like, I don't think there was a version of me in the past. It could have handled that. That could have said yes and allowed that to happen. I thought I would have had to have gone with her, or I would have had to say no. We stay at home because we're saving for a townhouse and we've got to do this. We've got to do this, this, this, this, this, rather than being, this is what our life is. This is how we move through the world, and this is what's true for us. Even to the point, man. Yeah. Like, similar to what you said, like, with retreats and things, we've shifted really from, like this idea of we have to coach people and do this. And we've really, like, stepped into a, a season of facilitation. And I think after being after Covid and the online world, you know, we've actually filled our calendar the last for the next 18 months with amazing retreats and workshops and events that we're running. And I'm so excited. I don't know about you, but I'd love to hear from you. I'm so excited to weave our son into this world and to have him come to these things. You know, Shane was born the first day of the gathering event in the big retreat we run. So I didn't go last year, and I organized a huge men's retreat, invited all of my, like, the dearest other facilitators that I've like, looked up to and built relationships with. And then No Shame was born. So I was at home in the, you know, in the Landry make birth birthing. But this year I had this vision of bringing him in and, like, having his birthday and, like, being able to celebrate him and, have all of the men singing Happy Birthday and may come out and bring him for an hour. And I just had this vision of, like, bringing, like, not making this work separate to my family or not like, okay, daddy's off to work. And then when he comes home, he's here. It's like, now can I actually bring you on the journey and weave you into my world? So I don't know if that, you know, when you said that I about you know, how you guys are moving. It's very like for me, man, is super inspiring. It reminds me that, what I'm doing isn't revolutionary. It's just like, what? You know, if you walk this path, it's. It's just how it is. Yeah, yeah. He's, She was pregnant. I think. I can't remember how pregnant she was, but she said in ceremony when she was pregnant and, he'll be sitting in he'll be in ceremony with, next month's, And, you know, it's I know how powerful this is, for, for her, for me, for him. Lineage is back and forth, and there's a lot of people that would be against it, and that's great. And we have a very different life to a lot of people. And I don't expect everybody to understand. But I know deep in my bones what is true and right for us and the and, you know, I at the same time she's doing that, I'm running another retreat for men in Sweden and it's. This is what it is. And it's beautiful and I love it. And I wouldn't want it any other way. Men. Yeah. Thank you. Like, just for coming on this for it from a personal perspective. Like, everything that you're saying is almost like just reaffirming some of the decisions that Megan I made and, and continue to make, you know, for us, I think make this 36 weeks pregnant, we went and sat in ceremony out on the land for three days with one of our teachers and brothers from Peru. And, yeah, man. We sat in ceremony and I had probably one of the hottest ceremonies of my life, and it was so beautiful because Meg was dancing with this pregnant belly in the creek and just like in the sun, dancing everywhere else, just like. And I was just, like, dying. Absolutely dying. And, my bro Kev came up and he's like, hey, man, how much longer are you going to suffer? It was just like, shit. He's like, you don't have to suffer any more if you don't want to. You get to enjoy this. And straight after that, man, I was just like, And he's just like. He's just like, you're a dickhead, man. Come on. And he's just like, he just gave me the, like the the loving, kind of, like, slap across the face that is that a shaman does so beautifully and use the language that needed to be used. And, you know, Megan, I had a very, very, you know, our birth, our the pregnancy, the birth was all very in aligned alignment with our, our values and how we we moved through the world anyway. So that ceremony really solidified for me just how deep, deeply willing we were to choose our path. And then like the, you know, at 38 weeks, we went and set sweat with one of our other teachers, Harvey. And she, like, you know, prayed and gave, you know, the gave us the deep, this really deep blessing and this deep trust in ourselves that we were walking the path and and walking towards the the actual birth. It felt like we were preparing appropriately for a rite of passage for both of us, for me to let fully go and trust that men could do this, and for me to go into something and actually do something that she's never done, but that her body innately knows what to do. I'd love your, you know, your perspective on that. In regards to what do you feel men can cultivate like, for me, it's always been a deeper relationship with nature. Is is always a good thing. But if we were to, you know, sort of moving towards the last 15 minutes of this, this podcast, is there any advice or any kind of, wisdom that you can start to deliver to some men? You know, we have a lot of guys listening to this podcast or their partners. Send them the podcast, listen to this, listen to this. Is this something that you could potentially seed for some of these guys that are on the precipice of deep commitment to a woman, or that they've having all of their, their avoidance, attachments coming up where they're like, oh, fuck, I've got to get out of Dodge, man. Like, oh, she wants me to. Marriage is coming up and we've been together for years or or she keeps talking about babies or, and I think I've got enough money yet all of those like, fast paced, erratic. Things that take a man away from his depth. Is there something that you is there anything that you could offer these these men? Just, just just a couple of little spices for the for the recipe, man, that they might be able to. Yeah. There's, there's an illusion of freedom that comes to the immature masculine that if I'm married or if I have more money, or if I have more women or whatever it is, that I will be more free. And it is just an illusion because you'll never be free. This whole world of. The kind of the polyamory and the open relating and it's all it all steeps from a deeper wounding of fear of intimacy and a fear of commitment and a fear of abandonment and you'll never be more free than when you were married to a woman that loves you and not loves you in a way that she needs something from you, but loves you in a way that you can be free and you know there is. You can be a Peter Pan. You hold us. You can avoid and and escape and run away from and deny all of these things. But eventually you need to grow up, and there is no greater path to growing up. And through responsibility and it really shows you where your work is. It shows you the parts of you that are, still probably. Restrained from some core belief that you embodied as a child and how you can heal those and release those and, and live in a way that you are free. This connection to nature is is super powerful and beautiful. And and I think if we were able to get men to cultivate a deeper connection to their own consciousness, they would understand all of these concepts far greater and far more deeply. In a I was on another podcast earlier and we're talking about this idea of. Of polarity and how it's so distorted and, and I've never met anybody that truly understands that male or female who doesn't absolutely love it because it allows us to both live in the fullest, deepest version of ourselves. And if I can live from the truest essence of who I am, and this then empowers my woman to do that from her perspective, and then her doing it empowers me. And it's just like circular economy where there's more love, more radiance, more depth, more freedom, all of it. And anything that does not create that is not true polarity. It's it's some kind of distortion or bastardization of it. So you can create that kind of depth with multiple women and a fear of commitment or a fear, fear of intimacy and similar to guys that don't want to ever try similar attention. So like you've been given a given the keys to a Ferrari, and nobody ever told you how to get out of first gear, and you think that's first is right. It's like, yeah, sure, but what if you took it a fifth? So, you know, a lot of this stuff is so fear based that I don't want to try something that's uncomfortable, but that's exactly where the depth is. Yeah. And I think, that that all feels very fucking true to me, especially that stuff around polyamory and avoidance. And, you know, this this for me, like the deepest freedom is about these found through responsibility. That's when I really, you know, get to create something, you know, greater than, greater than just my own, my own little world. So, thank you for sharing that. Thank you. And, I too, I remember when I did semen retention, and, like, I literally had more energy, more life, more love, more everything. And it became this rigid. I think what I found as I started to do some of these deeper practices is that my relationship became regenerative. It became like we we practice through lineage that talks about I need like sacred reciprocity, because when I was giving, I was also receiving. But then when I was receiving, it felt like I was giving. It felt like there was this yeah, there's almost this infinity symbol that was flowing back and forth between within me and within the relationship. It was this beautiful, regenerative, place that I could give and receive from, So thank you for sharing that. The one last one last thing that I'd love to sort of tap into is the word vulnerability. Now, a lot of guys, that I see online, there's some guys that get get caught up. They're the guys that are probably like formulating polarity and using it as a more as a way to get what they want, rather than actually a way to deeper into love or different, you know, access deeper truth. So use their consciousness to dig deeper into it. A lot of guys step away from the word vulnerability because of what it may mean in society says, you know, stay comfortable, stay secure, don't expose yourself. Because for the risk of insert fear, and I've just been contemplating the word vulnerability for, for the last probably six months, and I haven't really I haven't come to a conclusion yet. But if if there was something that you, you have on the word vulnerable, what does it mean to be vulnerable as a man? Because I know you said before the emotions, you know, men coming back and just vomiting their emotions all over their woman and treating their woman like an emotional vomit bucket, and then the woman has to, like, create posture and structural integrity for the relationship. I don't I don't think that's a good idea. Men don't do that. But if you could, Yeah. What does it mean to be vulnerable as a man? To be able to share truth. And, you know, there are many there are many experiences for men where they've shared something deep and it's been used against them. And so they're like, I'm not going to do that. But it's it's not necessarily, as you said, you're not. She doesn't become your therapist, but it might mean that you share with her that you are struggling. So like, I love I got some shit going on and it is heavy and I'm with a men's group and a therapist taking care of it. But just to let you know that what you feel, because she does feel it, what you feel is true. And I'm taking care. And she might ask, is there any way that you can help? And you just kiss her on the forehead and you just say, I just love me as I am, but I'm taking care of it. It's it's there needs to be space for truth. And, you need to be willing for everything to burn to the ground in the name of truth. Because this is who you are. And the truth of your heart, the truth of your word and the truth of living the life that you truly are aligned with. And any time any of those are out of line and you feel it. And she might not know why, but you just feel like she can't trust you, and then she'll close and your capacity to bring her an uncomfortable truth also shows her that you trust her any time you hide something from her, it's like you think that she can't handle it. So it's kind of diminishing in multiple ways. But you know, if there is, we had this retreat here in the weekend and this guy was in his 50s, and within the first 40 minutes he was weeping and he's like, I don't cry. I do not cry. I don't know how you've done this. And it's like when I've heard that multiple times in the last few weeks, it's you create a space safe enough and with enough depth for a guy to step into it and feel like he can share something. I've heard things, guys. I've never told anybody ever, simply for any number to sit in front of them and or sit in a circle with them and the release, the freedom that comes from the release of the bird and the putting down of this backpack that I've carried for so long. And they leave lighter. And why would you not want that? Then yeah, this I, I feel, you know what you just shared that for me is like such deep medicine for a man. Like, can I actually find a space safe enough to put the backpack down to reveal my heart and not be thrown out of the tribe, not to be pushed away? We had a we had a we had a couple of really beautiful experiences over these past five days. Man. One guy couldn't understand why he was there, and he kept being like, I'm I'm a leader. I know I'm a no, I'm good at this. Look, I've done this work and it's like he's what? Why? Why am I even here? What? He's don't. And you know, we had a beautiful, beautiful ceremony of like honest. We call it radical honesty where everyone got the opportunity to really deliver feedback to each, each person. And this man got probably some of the hardest feedback I've ever, I've ever heard. And what that did was revealed just how deeply, healthy, safe men were missing in his life up until now, when men would rather push him away or, and and and point the finger and blame him. And then that would make the story continue. And what we got to offering was like the honest reflections into the deep, holding the deep safety of men. And, for me, what I've, what I've taken from men's work into my relationship is that when I'm, when I have a space to be held. In my absolute chaos, in my absolute, you know, in the parts of me that I do not believe, that I truly do not believe are worthy of love when I'm held in those and I can relax and let them go, and I find that freedom, I can then come back into my relationship, and I can hold a posture where I can deliver and share the truth without losing myself in in the emotions. Because I've been and done done the work with, with, with people that can hold me, especially a group of men. So men for me like that, that idea that brotherhood is the medicine. It's been a it's been a really, really true statement over the last five days and something that I'm really, really love, man. But, is there anything else for you men that you'd like to share for the for the men or even for the women? Maybe something is there anything for the women that you'd like to share that maybe listening. For the women, it's it's always it always seems to come back to this idea of knowing your worth. And so many women stay in these relationships where the guy's not yet ready. And. Just briefly on that, on that last piece around, the men that are not ready to commit if you, you know, Allison Armstrong speaks about the page. The knight, the prince of the early prince, middle prince, late prince and king. And if you're a knight and the knight is the guy that seeks adventure and seeks excitement and fun and all these things. If you're a knight and you know you're a knight, then make sure your woman also knows exactly where you're at. And if you're a woman dating a knight, he's not the guy that he's going to be ready to commit to. And you cannot take a man out of his developmental phase. He cannot skip a phase. And I was I was deep in my Prince era when I realized I missed the Knight and I had to go back and do it, you know, and I could not be in a committed relationship when I did that. And now I'm in Middle Prince and I'm locked in and it's fucking amazing. And I've got my queen and we're building the kingdom, and this is just the way it is. And now I'm ready. So. But so many women are just this stuck in relationships where the guy's not ready and she's not having it and needs met. And she thinks that there's nothing else. Maybe she's maybe this is as good as it gets, and thousand percent is not as good as it gets. You just need to know that you're worthy. Everything you've ever wanted is already yours. You just need to align yourself with the frequency of it. And if you believe you're unworthy, then that is what you're going to receive. I love that men. I love that, I just had we taught that that that secrets, they the training eyes had to realizing like the K in the night is silent. It's like women will see that kind of they call king. But it's like, not yet. It's like that K silent. It's not. He's still at not. And I truly believe that, that that the prince phase is where, where we really lock in. I to feel like. I mean like that early to middle prince. Just everything's just starting to feel like, oh, this is my. The next decade is is. I can see it now. It's all starting to to reveal itself. So, the humility to say I'm not yet a king, but I'm willing to work towards building a kingdom with with the woman that I love and to do it alongside her. Not. I have to have it built before she's here. Is is a really like. I think humility is such a powerful, powerful tool for, for men that do want to do great things in this world. So, man, thank you so much. Is, is, I'm obviously going to get, you know, we'll put all your stuff down in the show notes, below. But is there anything that you'd like to. This will come out in the next couple of weeks. Is there anything that you'd like to share, about what you've got on or where people can find you or anything? Because I know you've got your. The one thing I'd like to see is you've got your 100 ways to create polarity. That I'd love to have that in the show notes. That's a really great resource for anyone that's looking for to really, you know, sink your teeth in straight away. I'll put that in the show notes. And is there anything else for fantastic. I mean, I have a few online kind of self led programs. But the thing that excites me more than anything is in Sweden at the start of June, and it's three nights literally in the middle of Sweden. It's a five hour bus ride from Stockholm. There's no electricity, there's no Wi-Fi. It's just it is, you know, there are bears and moose and wolverine and you fish. We had a private shift to make us food, a cook out made over the fire and our fish and it's just a very small group of men being in nature with nothing to do except be around other men and talk and, that excites me more than anything at the moment. Yeah. The way it's food cooked over a fire. No electricity. Nature from no internet. No internet. Oh, oh. Yeah. The best bro, man, thank you so much. I'll make sure I put all your links down below for Instagram and websites and stuff. Dude. Thank you. Like, from a personal level, from my heart. Thank you for confirming that. And just making me feel more understood just through your own, vulnerability and sharing your own experience. Thank you for the work that you do with men. Thank you for the way that you, father, in the way that you love your woman. It is deeply inspiring and reminds me of my responsibility and how I access freedom through deeper conviction and commitment to that. And, dude, I, you know, if you're ever in Australia, I, you know, and I look forward to one day, you know, spending some time with you and, we've got big plans for, next year as well with the gathering of men. So I'm working on, you know, inviting some guys from around the world next year to really, anchor even more deeply the prayer that we're setting for that men. So I'll make sure that you get an invite. And hopefully one day we can, stand alongside each other with the brows and do some deep work. My invitations go a long way back to the motherland. So, bro, thank you so much. I appreciate everything that you do and all that you are. Thanks, man. So. Yo, yo, yo, thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of sex, love and everything in between. Now, if you'd like to stay connected with Megan, you can head on over to Instagram and follow me at the Jacob O'Neil. And where can people find you live at the dot. Megan. Oh, Amazing. And yeah, guys, check out the show notes for all other information in regards to what we've got coming up. And yeah, we're super, super grateful that you guys have taken the time to listen in to this podcast. If you do have any topics or any questions, like I said, hit us up on Instagram and we'll see what we can do. Apart from that, have a beautiful, beautiful rest of your day. Thanks for being here. Big, big love.