Episode 115: Traditional Gender Roles (Our Thoughts)

“If we don’t define roles with love, we inherit them with resentment.”

This episode is a real, unfiltered look into what it means to navigate traditional gender roles in a modern, conscious relationship,  especially when both people are doing the work, both want to be held, and neither wants to live in a performance.

From emotional labor to who leads in what moment, we talk about the messy middle, the part no one tells you how to do.

We ask each other the raw questions:
Who holds the structure?
Who holds the emotional tone?
What if we both don’t want to lead?
What if we both do?

We’re not giving you answers, we’re giving you our lived experience. And hopefully, permission to find your own.

🔥 Here’s What We Dive Into:

•  The emotional cost of holding it all (and who usually does)
• Why polarity isn’t a betrayal of feminism, and why we’ve wrestled with both
• The hidden guilt of craving traditional structure
• The provider wound, how it shows up in both of us, in different ways
• Why “fair” doesn’t always mean 50/50
• The difference between conscious roles and inherited roles
• How we’ve made peace with leading, surrendering, switching, and asking

🔥 Love this episode? 

Don't forget to subscribe and share your thoughts in a review. We love hearing from our listeners!

🔥 Let's stay connected:

Follow Meg: @the.meg.o

Follow Jacob: @thejacoboneill

Follow the podcast: @sexloveandeverythinginbetween

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Transcript

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I've gotten to meet so many amazing versions of you, so many amazing parts of you, through trusting that all of you is welcome. Even if I don't know what all of you looks like, if I don't know what all of you is, and then when to witness you give birth. There was no there was one part of me that didn't trust the full expression of you, the full capacity for you to meet a pain that I will never know. A challenge that I will never know. A. Place outside of the known. The mystery that I will never go to. Because I don't have a woman. And I don't know what it's like to grow a child in my belly. To feed it, to grow an organ and then birth a child like I'll never know that. Therefore, how can I expect to put you in a box? Yo yo yo lovers. Welcome, welcome, welcome to sex, love and everything in between. Where the O'Neals. You're here with Meg and Jacob. And this is the place we have really uncensored conversations about sex, intimacy and relationships. Well, super excited you're here. Enjoy this episode. It. Hey, lovers. Hi. Beautiful people. Welcome back. We are on the podcast. We are. That's where we are. How are you, my love? I'm great. I'm excited for this conversation. Yeah. I think we're going to get a little fired up. I know I'm going to get a little fired up. And then my favorite kind of podcast episode. I'm going to remain very grounded. And fiery, ranty. Deeply present. I offer a transmission that is very fair and balanced. I've been getting, I've been whenever something like this, the topic that we're talking about today, I get it. I know when I'm like, really, really meeting something because I get knotted up inside about how I want to communicate it. And this is such a, I think because of the nuance of of relationships and what we believe. And just having lived relating for the last ten, ten years, and then even more so, having a child the last seven months is like, oh, this there's so much to it. And it's can be boiled down into just these simple formulas that can sometimes be a little bit, basic. And that's where we're really headed today. You know, we've been seeing some content online around traditional gender roles and, yeah, traditional gender roles, traditional relationships. And yeah, I feel like once we've seen this content, we've been showing each other this content and just having lots of discussions in our own marriage and out just together. And yeah, we wanted to bring this conversation through and just speak into more of the nuance around. Yeah. Partnership. And I think something I want to speak into before we go anywhere is that. Yeah. Like you said, I think sometimes online relationships can be boiled down into such a black and white formula. And you know sometimes that's for views, sometimes that's the likes. I can see why people do that. And we really want to bring some nuance into the conversation today. And one thing I really want to speak into is that we truly believe every relationship is unique and has its own blueprint and has its own, like truth. And so any time you're seeing formulas online or something and saying your relationship should look like this, or, you know, the woman should do this and the man should do this, or whatever it might be, just notice how that feels in your body. If that feels constricting, or if that feels like not true for you or your partnership. Listen to that. Like attuned to that. And yeah, really trusting. I think this is the like beyond polarity, beyond the masculine and feminine, beyond all of that. What's most important as a foundation is what's the truth of the moment, like what's true for me, right. And what's true in our partnership that trumps fucking everything. Everything. And obviously, to be able to attune to that takes rooting down into your body and being embodied and working through your trauma and, you know, becoming conscious of your wounds and, you know, the relational wounds you have in all of those pieces and all of that is so important. And, you know, an integral piece to the puzzle of being able to attune to what is true. Right? It's not just that simple. But I truly believe that that trumps everything. That trumps polarity, that trumps everything. Like this is that's that's the core. The emerging truth. Yeah. What's beneath the words? What's beneath? What's the. What's the thing that is rising up to be men in relationship? And just an example to make it really real. You know we're going to be talking about gender roles and traditional roles. If you're a woman and you, you know, looking at lots of content that's saying that you should desire a man that provides for you and to take care of you and all of these things, but you fucking love working and making money and creating in the world and receiving from those creations like the truth of your experience to the truth of what you desire, and potentially the truth of your partnership, is not necessarily his financial provision. That can be provision in many other ways, but may be the truth of you. And your partnership in that moment is for you to be the provider or for you to be the breadwinner, right? And not trying to make yourself wrong or feel like less of a woman, or that you're not in your feminine because of that, like, oh. It's almost as if if a man provides, he then has the without saying it. But potentially this is the energetic tone if I provide there for you. Under the guise of my control. Yes. And I think just from some of. Did you want to deepen that? Sorry, I don't know. I, I believe men can be like, no, that's not what I want. I'm actually saying I want to provide for her so she can do whatever she wants. I'm like, yeah, I love you, bro. And I also believe that the energetic tone beneath that is it. I want to be in control of you. And you will and you will be. You will not upset the apple cart. If I'm providing for you, then you will not necessarily do as you told, but you will do as you told. Yes. And I feel like there's genuine, like eye witness within you, a genuine desire to provide for me and our family. What I think we're talking about and bringing the nuance in here is that, you know, again, we've we've witnessed some content online, which is very much, you know, like the man must provide the woman should not work in or, you know, a woman shouldn't have to work. And that, you know, there was this one particular video. She doesn't have to work if she doesn't want to. Is there correct term like I like the way he went. That was quite well. But then that. Piece was beautiful and I get that. And beautiful. And then there was another piece to this particular video that then said, I want her to be able to do what she wants during the day. Go on, hot girl walks with her friends, post postcards or whatever. Like postcards. Yeah, something like that. Because a man that's going after his mission wants to come home to a woman that's calm and peaceful and happy. And this is the piece you showed me this video. And before you even brought your opinion in, I just felt like just like fire within me because that on the surface I can see how that when a man believes that he thinks that's a beautiful, kind, loving perspective to hold and desire to hold. I don't want my woman to have to work. She doesn't have to work hard. That was also part of the conversation he brought. She doesn't. I don't want her to have to go through challenge and pain. I want her to have an easeful life. I want her to go and, like, walk and hang out with her girlfriends and everything during the day. But underneath that was a deeper yearning. That was the disguise that was like, I want this for her. But underneath that was like, I'll give this to her. So when I come home from my long day at work getting after it, I have a happy woman. I have a calm woman. I have a woman. That's not going to be a burden of me. It's not going to ask more from me than I want to give. And the truth is, that's not what a woman is, right. That's not what the feminine is. You cannot if you want to deeply experience a woman, if you want to give a woman permission to be the fullness of herself, you cannot bring this expectation of, I will give you this, let me provide for you, but be happy fit in this fucking little box and I just need you to behave. I need you to be this because I'm giving you this. Like that was the undertone of that video. I don't think them that I was going to say, boy, that man, I knew that he was doing that. But that was really what I was feeling as a woman. And I think this is this is what can be inextricably weaved into the field of some of these conversations about traditional roles. I see this from men teaching this sometimes that it can be I want you as this and I want to provide for you so I don't have to deal with you. So no, I don't have to deal with your depth and your full spectrum and and the truth of what it means to be with a woman in the depth of her feminine. Because when not convenient. When are you going to relate? You can't just pay us to be convenient. You can't just go. He's 200 grand a year now. Be fitting a little box and be convenient. Anything else? No. I told you I'd get fiery and ranty, like, yes, I'm. You can relate from a biological and formulated perspective and use your little spreadsheet if you want, but relationships are a spiritual practice. You don't have to see them as a spiritual practice. You can play into the traditional roles and live life in that way. You're more than welcome to. However, if you really, truly want to access something greater through union, then you will call in a partner that is here to traverse the depths with you. And if you're a man and you say that you want to provide for a woman. Are you saying you want to provide for her, or are you just saying that you don't want to actually have to deal with her fullness? So just check yourself there because your words might say, I want to provide and you might want to be the hero of the story. But deep down, are you just saying that I just want to go to work and do what I want to do, and then when I come home, I don't want to be challenged. I don't want to be called deeper into intimacy. Am I actually like, this is like, is this actually a way for me to avoid deeper opening in love? Is this a way for me to contain and control and manage how love is gift given and received? Am I actually being a gatekeeper to the flow of love between our two hearts? And have I really sanitized and created a transactional experience? Because that's what's comfortable. Because as men, we want to know what is fair, equal, and value. Because we in society and I speak, we as collectively, we see ourselves through the lens of the value that we have to offer. Our identity is normally wrapped up in that. So if we bring that to a relationship, then of course we going to see it through that lens. Of course, young like young men in their 20s are going to come on and they're going to learn from other people and they're going to jump on their podcast because I'm going to have a woman. I'm going to let her go on hot girl walks, because I made $280,000 this month, and it's like. Like, your woman's going to experience pain. You no one's going to experience suffering. She's going to go through her own rites of passage. You cannot stop that. I just want to jump in there because I think. What happens out of. What also felt, disrespectful about that video. And I don't know if disrespectful is the correct word, but it felt like that, that, that that man wasn't seeing the initiatory path that is womanhood. This makes me emotional, like, to feel like a man is the only being that gets to experience initiation and challenge and like, go out in the world and be creative and like, do hard shit. It's like that's actually embedded into a woman's design and into our biology. The way we bleed and birth and, you know, move through menopause. And like all of these different things, we have, you know, embedded biological rites of passage, unlike men. And so I love when fuck up men. I love when Leon talks about what's that story he tells, I and John. I and John and he speaks about, the what he said some beautiful line when I, when we went in, Just I Loveland. Went and watched him, tell the story line. John and he said something like, men will always be trying to recreate. What women experience and like to try and, like, give them blood in some way. And yeah, that we as women, like we do, we just innately have these rites of passages and, innately initiated through our body into deeper levels of power. And men, men go to war to experience that same kind of like sensation or initiatory experience. And so that felt. So as a woman, I felt so unseen by that video. And I also felt like you're a boy and you've never been with a true woman, and you don't you haven't had a taste of what it means to be you. You were yet to experience the depth and width and breadth of what a woman is, because that is, you. A woman is naturally going to move through challenge and pain and all these different things, and your job isn't to take that away from her. Your job is to witness her in not like thinking of birth like you didn't try. And if and this is where if a boy. If a boy in a man's body is a birth partner to a woman, he's going to try and save her from that. He's going to think with that same perspective. Oh my God. My job is to have her not experience that right now, my job is to have her not go through pain, or I need to save her from this initiation or this challenge. Now you don't. You need a witness. Her. You must stand in awe of her in a fucking Ballard. Her bowed down to her. A woman's biology is wired for sacrifice. Her body goes through a cycle every month. Like gives blood. Yeah. In service to humanity, to boil that down, to. I just want her to not have to worry or her for her to just be free. And comments like where you actually starving her of what feeds her, the, the, the cycles of nature that move through her body, her innate intelligence, like, where are you as a man taking control of the household? That actually completely missing the mark, completely missing the depth of like what a woman is here to bring through for the world. And that is what you know. And Leon speaks about this when we speak about this is like we as men, we bleed to, to, to, to, to attempt to feel equal. We, we find ways. And unfortunately, this is the this is the culture of a lot of these men that are hopping on the podcasts and having very, very learned opinions, not lived, experienced opinions on relationships and on what it means to be with woman is that they get locked into these regulated physical experiences. They're the ice baths addicts, the high rocks heroes. They're the guys. They can lift the same weight over and over again, and they create very, very, regimented windows of tolerances. They have incredible capacity for a very small window for these very specific parameters. And if anything operates outside of those parameters that's wrong or that's that's not how it's meant to be. So a lot of these guys have incredible tolerance, but none of them have any resilience. And so fortification for what life is going to be bringing them. Which is to be in relationship with a woman, like a woman that is no longer contorting or fawning or, you know, and any of those pieces to be. Putting on the corset of the societal corset, the jets forces her into a posture that isn't truly her. That to come across as desirable and behaved in relationship. And this is a way, how I have to be to be loved. When you aren't with a woman, that when you're with a woman who is no longer subscribing to that idea of woman, that that way of woman ING right, that is not a convenient woman to be with. She is going to ask more of you, again and again and again and again. She isn't going to be peaceful and happy and behaved every time you come home from work. But she's going to be riding the wave of being a fucking force of nature. And this is where she is initiating you. Right. And I'd like to bring the nuance here in terms of this doesn't give women just this free ride and full permission slip to be, you know, projecting all over them in and, you know, doing all those things. There's a difference between feminine testing and being just completely and utterly rude and disrespectful. Deeply or just in the expression of feminine, like in the, in the, the true expression of what's alive and yeah, like we as women, I truly believe, are here to initiate our men into more of themselves. We are part of that challenge. And when not, and this is I see the the the spiritual practice of union men. We're playing in these like masculine and feminine dynamics is that when a woman devotes herself to bringing through all the phases of the goddess like a full spectrum, she's also saying yes to being the an initiating, inviting her man into deeper levels of himself because it's going to widen and expand his capacity when she's bringing those different phases of herself through. And so I would say that energy that we're talking about and maybe witnessing is like the man that doesn't want to be or is afraid of initiation. Once convenience wants to just stay in the window of tolerance and, like, not have to be burdened or inconvenienced in his relationship, thinking that a woman should just be solely a place of nourishment and calm. Yes, a woman is a place of deep nourishment and I am all for women lining to work that muscle more and remember that and reclaim that. And this has been a big part of our relationship, me becoming a more nourishing space for you and becoming a more nourishing woman. And for that to be the expectation of what it is to have a wife for what it is to have a woman, that she should be enriching presence all the time and that's not reality. 100%. Yeah. Sorry. I feel like I interrupted you and went on a little rest and. I think and and and I want to, like, really reiterate that a lot of this is coming from like, the, the, you know, even though there's the energetic undertone of like, I don't want to be a woman that's hard to deal with, even though that is the the energetic undertone that I'm picking up on. There is actually a genuine desire to serve. And this is something that men are wired for. Men are wired for service. We and what we want to do is we want to package up how our service can best fit into something that creates certainty and routine for us, because that is something that we as men gravitate toward. Discipline. Okay, if I show up and I make this money and I do this job and I provide for her, then my life is going to be calm and peaceful, and I'm going to feel fulfilled because I'm adding value and impact to the world. And I come home and I'm getting the nourishing love that I want. However, that is still a there's still a level of sanitization going on there. There's still a level of I need to control everything. When we do that and we create rigidity that leads to fragility. So the rigid becomes fragile and eventually the cracks start to happen and the stress starts to, I will, overwhelm the, the the container and it inevitably will fall apart. And that isn't to say that that wasn't meant. Yeah, what's meant to happen will always happen, of course, but if we're really looking at this relationships as a spiritual practice, relationship as a way of learning more about ourselves, we must be willing to engage with all aspects of self and bring all of our selves to the relationship, and not just pick and choose what is traditionally or biologically or what makes sense. And you know well that quite often doesn't make sense. I can see why young men get it into their head. Actually I want to provide for you, I want to I want my womb to feel safe. I want my woman to to be provided for. Yes, brother. Yes. And I want you to take her to deeper places than she's ever gone through your presence and your undeniable depth, and your ability to allow her to dance on your chest as she bleeds L-o-v-e like let her take up space. She's not just going to want to go on HoCo walks and collect postcards. She's going to ask to devour every ounce of story that is not true, that is flowing through your being. She's going to devour all the non truths and bring forth more than your nervous system can handle. And their in-laws your work in relationship. I'm not saying that you have to be in process every single night, like there's a difference between a woman that brings it through as a gift and a woman who is fighting against you, and you get to be discerning with that. And normally there will be a trend and it might be that you need to set boundaries. But realistically, like a lot of these guys there actually do what they wanting to do is they wanting to serve, but they've pigeonholed themselves into something that makes sense and is comfortable for their current identity. And they just go around and they keep having conversations with guys that reaffirm that no one that challenges that point of view. So a lot of guys are jumping on me. Yeah, biologically, this is what it should be. Yes, women are this, yes, men are this. And I, you know, I'm a realist, I get that. But I've looked at my grandparents relationships and I've looked at them and I've, I sit down and I observe. And what I see is that there is a missing piece in those traditional roles, and it's the spiritual practice. It's the deepening and allowing the other person's soul to take flight within the container that you've created for Union. That is, that will keep the aliveness in your life for the rest of your life. If you continually lean into that. I've gotten to meet so many amazing versions of you, so many amazing parts of you, through trusting that all of you is welcome. Even if I don't know what all of you looks like, if I don't know what all of you is, and then when to witness you give birth. There was no there was one part of me that didn't trust the full expression of you, the full capacity for you to meet a pain that I will never know. A challenge that I will never know. A. Place outside of the known. The mystery that I will never go to. Because I don't have a woman. And I don't know what it's like to grow a child in my belly. To feed it, to grow an organ and then birth a child like I'll never know that. Therefore, how can I expect to put you in a box? Sort of waiting like you like. And I'm just so grateful that we had journeyed so deeply together and that I didn't get stuck in. I'm just here to provide for you financially. Because if I had of, I wouldn't have. I would not have been able to experience what I've experienced. I would not have got to meet the parts of myself that I was still hiding away from the world, because I was scared that they were not worthy. Oh. That was really beautiful. Yeah. I feel that there's like just this part of me is like, yeah, cool. Like for instance, like I don't know the dynamics for these guys that are speaking because of maybe, maybe, maybe they saw their mum fucking suffer. Maybe they saw their mom really fucking struggle and have to work fucking hard just to put food on the table. Maybe these, maybe there's like, maybe these guys have single mothers that were abandoned by men. Maybe they're trying to right the wrongs of the generation before. And we do this in like we in sacred rage every month when we run it, we we we say to men, you don't have to right the wrongs of the men that came before you. You get to be you. You get to be you. You don't have to not be your dad. Oh, you get to be you. You don't have to not be your dad. So many men think that beliefs are what you think you are. A lot of men's beliefs of what they think they're not. And for so many men, I'm not like my father. I'm not my dad. I'm not like them. It's like, dude, you don't have to be. You get to be you. And that's the that's the path that we take them to. We down there, like, remind them of who they get to be, whoever they want to be. They don't have to. Right the wrongs of the men that came before them, and they don't have to not be their father. So a lot of men are trying to right the wrongs. They're trying to swing the pendulum. They're trying to pay the debts of their fathers because they saw their mothers suffer. They saw their aunt suffer. They saw women suffer. Therefore they don't want that to happen, which is a beautiful thing. So I, my, my like I love and respect these young men that are fired up. I love and respect that they want to stand up and feel the bank account with money, and make sure that there's a roof over the head and that she's in a safe. Kind of like like, thank you for your heart, but now bring your depth. Yeah. Thank you for your heart in your head. But your depth is now required, brother. Like you're. There's a deeper part of you that is waiting to be accessed. So get out of the ice bath, get out of the podcast room and come into the come into the wild and meet the Great Mother. Yeah, come out and meet something that is so far beyond what you thought was available that you can come back and bring a depth to your woman so she feels safe to bring a deeper part of herself. That's the actual provision that I'm interested in. That's the provision. Can you provide depth, not just financial security? Can you provide depth so that she can access a part of herself that is here to give the world something truly and utterly unique, that only the feminine can, through a woman's body. That was so beautiful. Okay. I'm complete. What would you like. I just loved being in. Yeah. And I love these young men. I love these like young bulls because I know what it's like to feel that like I've, I've been that I've been like I'm going to fucking save the world. And I think we need more men like that where I don't want to put that fire out. Like, I've seen so many women literally. You know, we talk about the witch hunt for women, which I've seen so many people try to tear this young dude down. I'm like, bro, you actually need to come and spend some time with some men that are in relationship. And I'm like, hey, man, I love where you're coming from. Let me give you a few little tips. I love what you're about, man. Like, fuck yeah, let's build on this. Let's not put your fire out. Let's teach you how to use it. Yeah. And I felt that when I watched that video, it was like, oh, I can see I did. I could feel this hot and I can feel the pot like it is beautiful. And I think, let's speak into that. Like the desire to provide for a woman. We're not saying that there is anything wrong with that. That is beautiful. And I know many women that desire yearn to be provided for. As for that, as an option, whether it's financial provision, I would say every single woman that comes into my work desires deep emotional provision or like where a man can hold her in her depth and provide that depth of presence, and she can, like, press into her and, and feel she can feel his container in the relationship. I would say for many women, sometimes they have financial provision and it doesn't feel enough because the presence is not there and that that type of provision, but we're not saying that the desire, the yearning to provide or the desire to be provided for is wrong. What we're really speaking into is to just think that's all a woman wants. And if a woman was to be financially provided for, she shouldn't want for anything else. And once you feed a woman with financial provision, then she's going to just be whoever you need her to be and behave and be a pretty little trophy. Okay? Calm, whatever he said, calm, happy every time, you know, he walks in the door. So that's the piece we're really speaking into that you can't. So almost an element of you can't just pay a woman to then behave in the way you want her to behave, and then be a convenient part of your life. That isn't that isn't what a woman is to truly love. And I know that that that statement came from love, from this young man. But I think it's so important. And this is why we wanted to have this conversation, is to look what's underneath that. And what is most loving to a woman is, you know, yes, if if that's the option to be provided for. But for that to come from a place of without conditions for that to come, if you deeply desire to provide for a woman, that it's I will provide for you, because that's how I want to serve you, not I will provide for you with the unspoken expectation that you then are X, Y, and Z. For me. Right? Yeah. And so that's the piece that we're really speaking into and I think can just be very subtly or not so subtly weaved into these kind of conversations and yes, I think it speaks so deeply to the part of a woman that wants to be looked after. I would say, again, I'll just speak into the women that come into my space and listen to this and their podcast. I would say all women that come into my work really want to be looked after. And this isn't always and sometimes it includes. But this isn't always financial provision. It's so much more than that. Right. And yeah, so I think sometimes these traditional role, gender, role kind of conversations, the black and white ness of them can, kind of what, what am I looking for, not expose but like Poland or like, reveal. No. No, it's like they kind of use this desire of a woman of, like, you want to be provided for. Okay, but then I just want women to really know that they they can have that desire and that yearning, and a man can provide for them if that's the deepest, like, you know, if he wants to serve in that way and it doesn't have to then put them in a box of if that's, you know, I have to be, then. I now owe him something. I have to hide this part of me because he's if he doesn't, he doesn't like this. I can't bring it because then if I do and he doesn't like it, then I might not get looked after. And I think this I did a post on this ages ago, and we've spoken into this a lot in in our relationship, not in not that this is the dynamic of our relationship. And just we've had these conversations drill down, and I like how, you know, I talk a lot about the desire to be claimed. And, you know, we speak a lot into polarity in the masculine, the feminine, and often a woman's desire or a feminine being's desire to be led and to feel that like provision, but also like leadership and, direction of her man and. That can also when a man practices that on a surface level, without the compass of love and service. Right. When it's coming from self-serving that can be controlling, he can take the seat more of a dictator than, you know, in embodied love and in service to love. And so on the outside it might look the same. They might be doing the same things, might be even saying the same things. But the energetic is so important. Right. You know, we don't use those roles or play with those energies of polarity. Or if you do right, it can be played with on a surface level and a man can just be using that to control a woman to make his life more convenient to. It's not deeply in service to her. Like. And this is where yeah. Again, the nuance and like the, the mastery of this comes in. It's like when we practice or when I, when I feel you telling me what to do in our relationship, it's never to make your life more fucking convenient. It's because you, you see that in telling me what to do, right? I'm going. You're inviting me to let go of having to make that decision or soften into my body a little more. Do you have an example of this? Maybe just so we can, like. Oh, like the car seat just before you came in and you're like, oh, can we. Oh, just let me check. I'm just going to buy it, my love. Like, get out of my get out of my office buying it as bought. I'm going to go pick it up after the the podcast. Yes. What I, what I want men to understand is like providing is providing a space for a woman to really allow herself to be connected to her body. Like like this is the coming from the head down into the body. If a woman is being provided for and she has to think about what is allowed, what she has to be for you to feel calm, cool and collected. I've got to be this for him when he gets home because he's had a big day. Oh my God. Like there is a level of I'm having to be something that may not be actually true in my body, and like to think that a man can go to work and then come home and get the same version of woman every night, that's not going to happen if she's connected to her body, because her body every 28 days is going through the four seasons, the cycle, like you're you're very different person at each stage of your cycle. And if I'm not attuned and if I'm just locked into a rhythm that only honors me and my rule and my conditions, yes, I can create a very comfortable life for us. But is it true? So like the example of that, like. Oh cool. Let me just this pump on the car seat and it's at the shop and I'm going to pick it up and you're like, oh, what if we can get this. I was like, now that's cool. All right. Yeah. We could. Yep. No we're not going to look on different sides. I'm just buying it from this one because I know where to get it from. I'm going to get it. It's going to be here this afternoon. And then you left and it was done. And I know that that's not coming. Like it's not as if you're being like fuck off. Like I've got it. It's like it's like you being like my love. This is not something you have to think about. Your your eyes, your brain does not have to be on this. You know, I've got you. And I think that is provision. I've got I've got you, I've got this. Yeah, I've got you, I've got this. That's about. Us. Yes. And that's really, you know underneath financially providing underneath, you know, holding things in the home that maybe your woman, you know, doesn't have to hold like I've got us like that's when I, that's that's provision, you know, in terms of our finances, we I, I contribute to the home I like. That's not we don't work in that way in terms of traditional gender roles. But you fucking provide for me like I feel very fucking provided for. And it's not provided you bring 100% of the income in, it's because you there is so much in our home, in our family and in our life that I don't have to hold and I don't have to think about. And I would say that this is like super important, like, you can go on the journey of discovering who you are alongside a really fucking awesome human, and discovering who you are. There's going to be times where you don't actually live up to the expectations of those traditional roles. There's been many times I've been at the fucking down to nothing being the red, and that's a very, very vulnerable place to be. When I've told myself I need to be this to receive love, I need to be this. Otherwise she's going to leave that condition of I'm the provider. You have to be a certain way. Then got flipped because when I wasn't feeling like I could provide because of my own shit, my own demise, my own Dark knight of the soul, I then had to. I had to come to you and be like, do you still love me? Essentially. Like, are you going to leave me? What's going to happen? And you're like, no, I love you. You've got this. Even if you fail. Even if I fail, and I'll probably fail like another. I don't know how many times. And what I believe is that, like when you're both journeying together, you get to learn to. You get to learn to love the parts of yourself that you've hidden. Because in a relationship, you're going to get the like. If you go on the journey together, you're going to get the opportunity to be seen, by someone outside of you that has the opportunity to either push that down or welcome that into the space. Yeah, like shine love or amplify shame. Yes. And this was the piece that I think, like a lot of young men, they think they have to have their shit together. They have to have bought the house. And it's just another form of and ironically, it's just the entrepreneurship. It's just another 9 to 5 mindset. So I need to have all everything sorted so I can so you can fit into my life. Yes. And you know, I want to speak into how this is played out in our relationship that I, you and you did this podcast or it came out yesterday with Cardi Micallef and what was it called? Something like, reckless, the courage to be reckless in business or something like that. Reckless leadership or. Reckless leadership and really, from the little snippet that I've watched so far, I really want to listen to that episode. But, you speak into like some of the things, some of the courageous moves you've made in business, even like holding tea gone, like the gathering of men and having that huge vision and literally calling so many men into it to like, you know, get it. 200 men on the land that other people would have just called that reckless, like taking on that amount of risk, all these different things. There's been many times, even in both of our businesses, you know, if some people were to look at our finances and the moves we're making and just be like, what the fuck? Why are you doing that? That doesn't make sense. That's not safe or that's not X, Y, and Z. But that part of you, that's, that's more devoted to the truth than to security. That's actually why I fucking trust you as a man. Yeah, it's not because of the amount of money that you're bringing in or the amount of, savings that, you know, is always there in, you know, in our bank account. No fucking way. That's not how we live. But I trust you because you're you're a man devoted to mission, devoted to truth, devoted to what's moving you. That feels more, quote unquote, secure or safe to me or trustworthy to me than if you were to be devoted to keeping a certain level of financial security in a bank account at all times. Now, I know that it can be both. And, you know, we can have both. Yeah. But I but what I've. Yeah, what I appreciate is the devotion to. Yeah the devotion to truth. And for me, that's why I feel so provided for because you're a man on a mission and you're a man devoted to God, spirit, life. There's a shared value there. And I really want to speak to there's a shared value. And this is what I believe a lot of these men speaking that I want a woman to be this so I can be this. There's going to be a conflicting set of values there. If you want to grow and build and be a part of a vision, and a woman doesn't want to just play happy house wife, naturally there there will be a growing apart like for you. Like, I think the shared value we have is that we both want to grow and expand and be of service, which is beautiful. And we know that the bank accounts are going to eventually fill up more and more and more. We just trust that that is going to be a reflection of our devotion to the truth. And when we're devoted to the truth over safety, over certainty, over because the truth is, is that life is uncertain. Like we don't know what tomorrow brings. We don't we can pray, we can hope, we can put it in the Google calendar, but we have no fucking clue. So let us set the course for the general direction of the greater vision. The greater prayer of our life as individuals and as lovers, and as a beautiful young family. And let's set the world on fire. Let's go there. And to to do anything less would be reckless. To do anything less than that would be would be torture. To do anything less would be to play a game that is safe, therefore soul crushing. And when the soul doesn't want to be safe, the soul wants to be free. I will say that again. The soul doesn't want to be safe. The soul wants to be free. The deepest desire of man is to be free. And if you want to be in relationship, freedom is the answer. A deep responsibility to the truth. The truth beneath the words, beneath the comfort, beneath the calm. I was just going to say this doesn't mean that safety isn't a part of the conversation. And oftentimes like how our physical, you know, animal self, human body, self, you know, safety is important, I think, especially for women in partnership. And but this is also being able to almost expand, expand our capacity for discomfort. Yeah. And you know, learn learn a wide, a wider a wider expanse of safety, being able to expand into deeper levels of safety. Yeah. And this is and I did I really spoke into this at claimed. And there was a little snippet from claim that I post on Instagram the other day, and I said, A man is willing, like a true man is willing to, to make a woman uncomfortable, not unsafe, but uncomfortable. And a woman, if she's really devoted to loving him in really well, is willing to be uncomfortable. And I think this is, you know, in many way, shape or form. I told the story of you wanting to get a tattoo and me being like, I don't want you to get that tattoo, but that doesn't make me unsafe. It makes me uncomfortable. And can I be willing to to, you know, know the difference? Yeah. And not try and stop you doing things that make me a little uncomfortable, but be able to advocate for myself when it feels unsafe. Totally. And I think that like men that want safety, they want completion. They want to feel like create completion in their life. So I'm not saying to be free, go and pedal your money on a blackjack table and try to win it. Win win win win your retirement time. You you I love you. It. I'm not saying you have to go and you know, go shooting every day to like really, you know, experience freedom. I think there is a genuine part of like men who go seeking adrenaline inducing experiences because they actually don't know how to relax in their own bodies. Yes, yes. But what I'm saying is, like when I say that like your soul wants to be free and freedom is to be in alignment with the truth of who you are and to be relating with the truth that is emerging. And if you try to regulate over that and create safety over that which is just more control, it's not actual safety. It's false security. If you're trying to create more and more security by controlling the external, you are going to end up so rigid that you become fragile and all that you've worked so hard to create and provide for financially will eventually start to fall away. Because you haven't been present, you haven't been attuned to what's going on. You haven't had your, you know, your your finger on the pulse. You haven't been able to feel the rhythm and hear with your heart what is actually going on in the space because you're so focused on controlling the external world from a place of I provide this there for you. Are this, like asking yourself what? What is here? And can I be with this? What is the moment asking of me? And like I want you. I just think to like, how do I press myself into this moment and feel what's really going on and then trust myself, even if it doesn't feel comfortable to lean in a little more? And that's been, you know, a huge part of our journey. It's like I yeah I could easily leave the house, go for a walk and hope that whatever you're feeling gets swept off. Hopefully when I get back your sleep and I don't have to deal with it, I don't know how many times I felt that countless time. Whereas you're like, I can feel a disconnection. We have what's what is it? It's a it's let's meet it. And I'm like, I want to, I want to get I want to go to Egypt right now. And I get away because I don't want to deal with this because it's going to take something from me. But then when I actually lean in, I'm like, oh, there's something here. There's beauty here. There's something deeper here. I want to speak into that, because I already had this question formulating in my head. And then you took it to the most perfect place. A woman inside full spectrum woman asked this question in a last relationship Q&A when you were in the space, and it was something to the to the formas. What does a man get out of holding space for a woman. Like so in those moments what what is a man. And I'm saying that we'd like quotation marks. Get out of instead of going for a walk, choosing to lean in when his woman is asking for it or he can feel that something's there. What is a what is a man get? I'd love you to just speak into that. He gets to provide her what he used to provide her soul, a safe space to express something that it has not been safe to express in the past. Based on whatever experience she had that told her she was not allowed to. So what you're giving her is access to a part of her that is being caged. And when you will out, you choose to bring your depth to her and say it's safe for you to be free. This part of you, it's safe for you to be free. Come out, reveal yourself. I'm not going anywhere. He then gets to fortify his posture of consciousness. He used to fortify that and the value that you feel in your bones, the contentment that you feel as you create an experience that no one else can create for that woman, because you are there in service to her you today, you put your head down on the pain. Like, if I die in my sleep, I don't care. I don't give a fuck because I provided something that truly could not have been provided in any other way by any other man. In this moment. I was here and I chose to stay. And there's so many men that don't see that as an opportunity, because they have so committed to regulating themselves or going and going to another tool of regulation tool. I need to go and regulate myself so I can come back the by the time you've come back, the moment is past. The moment is asking you to be with it, not to regulate, to actually go into it. Yeah. To expand. And this is why your work of initiation is so beautiful, even like the medicine work we've done, or just all the initial free experiences you've done, you know, you've got to fucking meet the darkness. The only way out is like through the icky stickiness, through like staying and holding in that and, you know, I think so beautifully just just the way that question was worded in full spectrum woman around what is a man get? Firstly that a woman is asking that is really I think this is really like stage two of David datas relating model. Yeah. So it's like oh it has to be this equal exchange. And if and if he's, if I'm, if I'm getting the experience of him holding space, he must, he must get as much out of it as I do. And I need to explain to him what he's going to get out of there so that he does this and this, like, almost like, it causes addiction to a quality, an addiction to, like, it must be this equal exchange where it's actually a whole different consciousness to be able to practice this thing. Yeah, it's it's a whole different consciousness literally of existing because it's the consciousness of this is a spiritual practice and I'm as, as the masculine or a man. I'm stay. I'm choosing to stay and hold and not try and run away to a more convenient moment, not try and get more comfortable. I'm going to stay in hold and see this as an initiation, an initiatory moment of can I be with my discomfort? Can I be with the parts of me that want to run? Can I be with the parts of me that just want to? Oh, can you just deal with it yourself? Like to be with all of that is initiatory for a man. This is the spiritual practice of relating. This is how a man forges himself his backbone. His strength is unwavering. This more and more and more. And I've witnessed this in you. Not that I have been the the reason or the portal to who you are in the world, but your devotion to meeting me in those moments I think, is a huge part of why you're able to hold so much in your business and to hold so much in life, and to lead in the ways you do because you practice it on the motherfucking daily. In our partnership, you're not trying to escape me or. The work. Of our union so that you can go and lead outside of that. You know that that's in service, it's forging you. It's deepening you and that that is then you know, informing and deepening you as a man and as a leader and as, you know, a facilitator. So, yeah, it's a different consciousness altogether. It's not what you get. It's who am I? Who do I become through this? What is this inviting me into? Who is this inviting me to become? Yeah, but as a man, get the opportunity to fulfill his sacred role, his sacred duty. And in that, what does he get from that? He gets to experience that a new level of capacity for life. And then he can experience that in his relationship. That business is not there's nothing. Got this. Let's go. When you, you know I feel that we've all nervous systems have been continually, expanding rather than regulating. And now that we've got a solid cycle like he does want to sleep right now. Awesome. I got him. And we're going to be continually like, I feel that we're better parents because of how we've loved each other and stayed, yeah. And I said this to a brother that I caught up with this morning, his, going in for round two with his second child on the way. And I said, we don't teach. We teach our children how to love by how we receive love, not by how we give it. And I think that's a real huge paradox for a lot of men, because a lot of us men believe that, we're only worthy of love by the value that we give others. Yeah, so that's not true. How we receive love is how we teach others to love. Especially our children. And for me, like. Yeah, it's all about us in relation and. But, yeah, for me, like, there's a huge part of this is I'm doing this work. Yes. For me and for, for for my life and but I'm like, I really want my child to thrive. I want him to feel so secure and capable and prepared to face off with and have a, you know, beautiful, beautiful trajectory for for his life. I really want to set him up and provide him the opportunity to to thrive. And in that, there's a deep vulnerability of not wanting to get it wrong. So I can totally understand for men who are stepping into relationship or seeing the the next step for them is, is a relationship that they're going to not want to get it wrong. Therefore they're going to try and do what is right. Yeah. And that's where, you know, statements like that one on the podcast is from a bro who's just wanting to get it right. Yeah. But the truth is you can't get it wrong, man. You can't get it right. You just have to actually be with what is. There's still a paradox there of that. This is right. This is wrong. We collapse that and we actually move beyond the second stage relating of what's fair, what's equal to this is an opportunity to meet deeper parts of myself and call forth deeper parts of you. And in that, we're going to experience something that we could never truly have experienced on our own. Then we start to see that this is going to be a beautiful journey for the rest of our lives, that we get to choose. Do you feel complete or. I have one more question and I. Bring them all the way up to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have time. But here's the time when crushing podcast. I feel like we've we used to get like an hour and 20. Now we're not even. Yeah. We're just coming up to the hour. So yeah. Efficient. Parents. One more question for you getting. It done. There. This is and this is kind of like circling back to, earlier conversation. But what do you say to what's your thoughts on the school of thought that believes men shouldn't bring their emotions to that woman? Yeah. This is a, I, I believe if you have not individuated from your mother, then you will not fully understand how to bring your emotions to a relationship in an appropriate way. As a man, you will either avoid bringing them all together, or they will come out in a leaky or destructive or manipulative way. Yes. So for me, there's a really important piece here that you have to be able to communicate and share. And even for me, like, what was it last night that we had a little fracture? What happened? I think something happened. And you took ocean to the bath and I said, I'm not feeling good right now. Yeah. I don't even remember what happened. Something happened. I'd, I'd, I'd, I'd spilled a lot of what I was moving through. Yeah. Over you. And then I realized that I probably. Yeah. Yeah. And I felt myself shut down. And in that moment, I said. And you what? What do you. What's going on? I was like, I'm just not feeling very good right now. And I don't have the I would like to just clean the kitchen, but I don't have the capacity to. And I part of me wanted to make you wrong for what you said and blame you and point the finger. I was like, hey, I'm just not feeling good right now and I need to be with this. I wash dishes and I was like, I love her, dammit. I don't want to fight tonight. I love that bitch. I love that dang girl back then. Gum girl. So I was just like, okay, cool, what's here? I was like, oh, cool. I suggested something and I got rejected. Call that hurt. Did she ask for me to suggest anything? No. Why did I suggest it? Because I thought I was brought. I thought I had the answer. Did I have the answer? No. Did she? Actually, one night, she just wanted to be heard. Okay, cool. Did I actually want to hear all of that right now? No. Not really. I didn't want to have a conversation

around business at 8: 57:27

00 at night. Okay, cool. You could have said, hey, my love, let's just, I trust that you've got it. I don't actually want to talk about that tonight. This is actually got nothing to do with her I love her. So for me, a man has to have an ability to self inquire to be able to internally digest what's going on for him so he can bring his emotions in a clean and articulate way. Yes. Which I feel, you know, at some and I know we've been in discussion of this in certain relationship teachings and very again, this is a of the more traditional gender roles kind of teachings, is that a man should not bring his emotions, discuss his emotions, be in emotions around his woman. That's not something that you know he should be in. If he wants his woman to respect him. I don't know, I just I have certain thoughts around that. I just don't think you if you can't look at a sunrise and have it move you to tears, then you're not really relating with the feminine in a way that, like is serving the depth of your being. So like sometimes when you move through the home, it like it brings me like ridiculous amounts of joy and gratitude to the point where I'm like, it'll move me to the point of emotions. Like it'll draw me out of consciousness into my feeling. And I've come out of observing to, oh my God, I'm feeling something like watching. Every morning I wake up and I see, I wish cuddled up to you. I'm just like, 0000, I, I want to feel emotion in my relationship. I want to feel moments of vulnerability because it means to me that this has weight. There's something here that I'm allowing myself to be attached to, to be connected to, to feel. And if I'm not giving myself the permission to feel that, then I'm still withholding my heart. And I think that that's, you know, a lot of men will be like, you know, men don't show emotions in front of women. I'm like, this isn't fucking war, man. We're not. We're not at war. Like, I don't know why we have to treat ourselves like fucking military, soldiers in our relationship, we should be able to bring our hearts and reveal our emotions and also not become a wet rag, not become not not use our partner as a vomit bucket for our emotional processes. Which is why I believe in brotherhood. So strongly. Yes. And I do understand that piece in that also, like you are someone and you're probably on the other end of the spectrum of like your invitation in our partnership has to feel more safe to, to be witnessed in your emotions and bring more emotions. Yeah. But this is why I don't think that like hard and fast rule of do not let your partner witness you cry or witness you in emotion. We have had, I think, some of the most healing moments for you, full stop in your life, have been when I have ruthlessly been devoted to staying and holding and witness, like not leaving a room when you want to run and you know, have, you know, emotion alone and not be witnessed. I'm like, I'm staying and I'm, I'm teaching you that this part of you is unlovable. And I'm going to shine my love on this part of you, this part of you, that's that's grieving or or, you know, wounded or whatever it might be. And so I just, I, I feel like. Men, Thinking that, that they shouldn't ever bring emotion. I shouldn't ever I don't know, I just think that that that's been, that losing out from being being loved, in, in a very deeply healing way, and also honoring the fact that a man, if we're looking at the masculine and feminine, like every human, you know, a man still has feminine. Yeah. You know, energetics within him. And so knowing that there's and why the dynamic that we hold in partnership is that I hold the pole of the feminine that feels more enlivening to me, and you feel more enlivened in the masculine. But that's not a hard and fast every fucking moment should be that. Or else we're fucking it up or something's wrong. There have been deeply healing moments where I have held that I'm staying. I'm being unwavering. I'm being a container for you right now. I'm shining my light of like, even last year when that was that moment of like that fear of failure or failure for you. And I stood there and I was like, even if you fucking fail, I'm not going anywhere. Even if you fuck this all up, I'm staying. I'm not going anywhere. And like, that was really it was that. Where was it? In the bedroom. Oh, yes. That to me that's that's deeply felt. That's deeply nurturing. What these mental that I want I want to be nourishing and nurturing like she's going to she's going to rub Elvira on the wounds of the little boy. Yeah. And, and and look after him in ways that you have no fucking clue who is going to fucking, you know, heal you. And at this. Sorry. You can. And I think letting her love that those parts of you will teach you how to love those parts of yourself. Yes. And for me, like our wedding was a beautiful, beautiful experience that I. I let myself feel chosen. That makes me emotional. I allowed myself to think, oh, she's choosing me. She said yes to me. That must mean that I'm good enough. Fucking hell. And it hit me like a I remember like like seeing you. What? I was like, I think deep down, there was still a part of me that thought you weren't going to choose me. I was like, Holy shit. And I truly believe that there's an element of most men that want to be the provider. That's like, it's not safe for me to be in a relationship unless I have. Unless I'm giving more than I'm receiving. I'm that. I'm giving this. I'm giving in this way, in this, in this, in this dynamic. And it's actually safe for me to be here. And that. Yeah, that is fucking mental. So for men and I remember like so many of my brothers came up to me and they're like, what the fuck was that at our wedding? Because I let myself just, I just let myself go there. And so many my friends came up and I was just like, thank you. Thank you for showing us what it's what it means to have a straight spine and an open heart. So many men want to be stoic, but they don't want to take the armor off. Yeah. And I think for me, I was like, yeah, stand straight, fade on the earth, soften your belly and open your heart and allow life to move through you. Allow this love to to wash over you and allow this woman to deeply choose you. All of you, not just the parts of you that provide money and buy the things like allow this woman to wash over and rub Olivia into the wounds of the little boy that that was told he wasn't valuable, that he wasn't worthy of love unless he did this, this, this and this. And that, my friends, is what a relationship can be when you don't force yourself into the box of traditional roles. This was epic. I loved this conversation. We wouldn't even get a podcast anywhere and. I literally thought that before. Thank you my man. I adore you and I love, I love doing life with you and I love having these conversations. Listen to this. I love your emotion. I love your ability. I love your continual devotion to opening and opening an opening because that's something that hasn't. Yeah, it's a devotion for you and it's a practice for you and for all of us. But it's it's an honor to witness you in that and continue to receive more of you because of that devotion to opening. I love you. I love you. Thanks for loving me. Anything else? I feel complete. We'll see you guys next week. Bless up and big love y'all. Love you. Yo yo yo. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of sex, love and Everything in between. Now, if you'd like to stay connected with Megan, you can head on over to Instagram and follow me at the Jacob O'Neil. And where can people find you? Love her at the dot, Megan O. Amazing. And yeah, guys, check out the show notes for all other information in regards to what we've got coming up. And yeah, we're super, super grateful that you guys have taken the time to listen in to this podcast. If you do have any topics or any questions, like I said, hit us up on Instagram and we'll see what we can do apart from that. Have a beautiful, beautiful rest of your day. Thanks for being. Here. Big, big love.