Ep 101: Conscious Relating: From Solo Poly to Sex Magic with Dane Tomas

“Sex magic isn’t just about pleasure - it’s about intentional creation through our erotic power”

Join Jacob for a raw and unfiltered conversation with one of the most fascinating voices in conscious sexuality and temple culture. From his journey through open marriage to solo polyamory, Dane Tomas brings a unique perspective that challenges everything you thought you knew about relationships, sexuality, and spiritual growth.

Together they explore how sex magic can be a powerful tool for manifestation, why the nervous system is key to navigating relationships, and what it really means to create authentic intimacy beyond conventional structures.

Whether you're curious about conscious relating, sacred sexuality, or expanding your understanding of intimacy, this episode offers fresh perspectives on creating authentic connections that honor your truth while respecting your nervous system's capacity for growth.

They also riff off on:
• The truth about polyamory vs monogamy
• Understanding your nervous system in relationships
• Creating sacred intimacy beyond sexual connection
• The power of intentional pleasure practices
• How to navigate different relationship structures
• Sex magic as a tool for manifestation
• Building authentic community and connection
• The art of conscious relating
and so much more...

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⚡️Let’s Stay Connected:
IG: @the.meg.o @thejacoboneill @sexloveeverythinginbetween

⚡️Connect with Dane:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dane.tomas/
The Dark Field - https://dane-tomas.mykajabi.com/the-dark-field
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/track/2m6mTZGRVkYRewc0PoNlRI

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#sacredsexuality #consciousrelating #sexmagic #intimacy #relationships #polyamory #spirituality #podcast

Transcript

0:00

A lot of this started with tracking fears and shadows and then going towards the ones that I felt like I could dare to go towards, yeah, and so I just want to touch on something underlying what you just said. You know, we're afraid of certain elements of sexuality, but we're really also afraid of feeling and raw emotion. And I think that's why sexuality can be challenging for men, because we, you know, there's all this conditioning around wanting to be like a good lover or a good whatever. Yo, yo, yo. Lovers. Welcome, welcome, welcome to sex, love and everything in between, we're the O'Neills. You're here with Meg and Jacob, and this is the place we have really uncensored conversations about sex, intimacy and relationships. We're super excited you're here. Enjoy this episode. Hey, lovers, welcome, welcome. Welcome to another episode of sex, love and everything in between. Meg is out at social brew with ocean. They're having a day out. Got the house to myself, so I thought I would invite probably the our weirdest guest. And you know, I say that with love, but this guy here sitting beside me. His name is Dane Thomas, and welcome to the show, bro. Hey bro, good to have you here. I feel like we I said this to Meg when I read your post, and like, I feel like we would have been really good friends at primary school. I feel like you were the way that you write. It's like, I feel like I feel more understood whenever I read your content. And it's a crazy thing to say because you live a very, very different way of or you've come through a journey that is very, very different to mine, especially, you know, a lot of this personal development world or the Spiritual World, a lot of your stuff, to me, was just like eye opening. And I'm just going to reference a few other bros that have been, like, really pivotal in my perspective shifts. You know, Tyron, who's a good brother of yours, Danny redbar and other guys. These were guys that were in a sec, like, in the sexuality space that was, like, terrifying to me, my fellow like, slutty Viking kind of dude, the slutty Viking bros. And like, I was terrified of all of you because I because my understanding of the world was man, woman, dog, two cars, house, working a job for 50 years. And then I started to explore plant medicine. And then I got connected to like the light, like light spirituality, this kind of floaty, just surrendered to the universe. And then I started to explore this, like I started to feel the deeper stuff coming through for me. And you guys were a real permission slip for me to start to explore desires that I in the past would have labeled as fucked up, gross, weird, gay, bi, all of those things. And it's you know, and I still really love all of your posts, because I can feel beneath your content. There's this like, there's this deeper, energetic kind of undertone to what you're saying. It's like, I'm sharing this not from a place of I'm right or I'm wrong, but I'm sharing it from places like this is what I've inquired with and where I'm currently at, and I think it's so fucking important, especially with what's going on in the world and with the rise of the the TRad wife, Trad life movement and and I sometimes feel a little bit like that's what I want. And at times I've got to check myself, like, okay, cool. Where am I still trying to hold on to or try to control my life? So yeah, bro, it's so good to have you here, and I think you're going to give a really wicked perspective on a way of relating and sex and spirituality that we haven't had on the show yet. So thanks for being here. Love that super happy to be here. So I want to just start straight, straight at the the crux of you know, our relating styles. Like, I'm monogamous, I'm married, I've got a kid. I live in the suburbs. I have a dog. It's like so class. I feel it's so classic. But for me, it's really fulfilling, and even from from a perspective, like it looks like that. But for me, the relationship that Meg and I have is is very deep, and we've explored many different worlds and realms when it comes to our relationship. So for you, like you've polyamory is how you you would say poly. Or can you just give us, give us a rundown of like, relationship styles for you and your relationship style and how that how that looks. Or can you give us a definition as best you can? Yeah, and it's tricky, because I feel like I'm going to use a whole bunch of buzzwords, and I, up until very recently, have avoided a lot of those, and then found myself going, you know, it's actually useful to use some of these categories, just for my own clarity and also communicating to people, especially because I spend a lot of time in, like the tantra world, and I've been kind of traveling the world a lot the last couple years at. Friend, events, festivals, yada yada yada. So, at the risk of sounding like a bunch of buzzwords all at once, you know, but I would say currently, I see myself as solo poly, which is hilarious when I wrote about that, because some guys like, don't you just mean fucking single, you know? Because it's like from and really, I guess for me, this, this stuff is, it's a lot deeper than the structure, you know, like, I know that on the surface it's like, I mean, really, what are you there's really only three possibilities of structure, right? There's monogamous, non monogamous, slash poly, which people would debate what those mean. But let's just put those together. And there's celibate. And to me, all three of those paths are valid. I have embodied all of them at different times and and even sometimes it kind of gets confusing to explain, because they kind of start to merge and blend in me, not so blatantly split, you know, like I technically am married, even though Mia lives in Berlin and travels the world and we, you know, romantically, pretty complete, but we're still something, you know. And we journeyed about five years of open marriage. But some points in time, inside that open marriage, very monogamous energies and moments and times, you know, and other times super open poly coming back from lovers houses and cuddling up and going, Okay, I'm gonna have a sleepover with blah blah blah on the weekend. Okay, I love that for you, or like, I'm not happy that you're gonna do, you know, all that stuff. But to me, I don't know if that shit matters that much. You know, to me, it's just structure, you know, it's like, whether you drive a four wheel drive or a hatchback or a motorbike, like, it's still transport, you know, and it's still how you get to where you're going to go. And I think what's more important is how we're doing love, and how we're doing how we embody love, and how we do relating, and all that sort of stuff. But yeah, if we want to put it in categories, the current mode, categories at the current moment, I would, you know, if forced to fill out a quiz, be like, okay, solo poly best explains how I'm living. And what that means to me is that it's not really structured around anyone else. So for a long time, my poly experiences were more of an open relating with a primary partner situation where it's kind of like, okay, I want to connect with this person, but I need to make sure that flows with my wife, you know, which is very is a cool place to be. And, you know, in the last two years, fully transitioning to like, cool. So this is between me and me, Me and the universe and me and whoever. And no one has veto power over anything, no one you know. So really, there's been a flattening of hierarchy. And you know what kind of American relationship nerds will call relationship anarchy is closer to how I'm living, and it's it's really about navigating love and sex and Eros in the moment. And what's happened to me a lot from living this life is like the categories start to melt, you know, like there are friends that I used to be lovers with that we're not necessarily sexual, but I fucking deeply love these humans, like I would, as much as I would a partner or anything else, you know. Yeah, it's really the categories have melted a lot for me over the last few years, I guess is what I'm trying to say, Yeah. And it feels like you've, like, you said you've embodied each of the styles or each of the relationship structures, which a lot of people either they're like, I'm this and I'm never going to be that, but they've never actually open themselves to to what that could be, or what, what could they could learn. And I'm not like, I've never done an open relating style of relationship with Meg, you know, we've been together 10 years, but we've had like, over the last few years, we've had beautiful, beautiful experiences where people could call that open relating, and how we speak, or how we move in community. And that's where I like what you've said, like this, there was some melting of the of the rigidity for me, of like, what Monogamy was, yeah, and that's why I can't get around these guys that are hectic monogamous, and they're like, anyone that isn't your wife is you're not allowed to look you're not allowed to spend time with the opposite sex. Won't leave my woman in she's not allowed to talk to another man unless I'm in the room. And these quite hectic, kind of rigid styles i i would identify as monogamous, but I can't agree with the conditions that they've put on that monogamous structure and and so this is where we get to, you know, the reasons why people are doing things are more interesting to me than what sort of category they put themselves in. And so it's just as there's, you know, I don't know what to call those dudes, but I don't really like their vibe at all, you know. And it's, it's kind of like this flashback to, like, fucking 39 Under Christianity, or, like, you know, fundamentalist Islam, of like, the wife stays in the home. It's like, is that David data, or is that Shariah law? Like, what's happening here? It sounds a little bit, you know, they overshot the landing. It like the data airport. They've just, they really landed in fucking repression territory. And it's the same as, like, there is so many spiritual coaches and teachers and influencers, and they're like, it's sacred union. And I'm like, okay, like, technically, you've taken an idea that was meant to be between you and, like, the beloved, you know, you're quoting, like Rumi, and you think it's about your boyfriend. It's like, it's that's between you and God, you know, yes. And now it's like, sacred union can only happen if you're, like, married, and you sleep on a bed of rose petals. And it's like, Bitch, sacred union is between you and you, and you can share that with another person, and you can be with them for 20 years. But a lot of those ideas are just really being basically, I mean, I did a post this morning. My main beef, we've kind of gone left already, but let's just roll it. Yeah, it's with spiritual materialism, right? Yes. And so it's where someone takes a spiritual concept and tries to make that about 3d reality. And we see this with like, I'm a goddess. You worship the Goddess, and it's like tantric worship of the goddess would be seeing the divine in your partner, not getting confused that she is, in fact, a super This is a human person, and I love her, and that's great. And then when I, you know, cultivate a certain level of devotion, I'm able to see the universe through her. But this, this kind of materializing these concepts, just takes us into, like, really weird places. And mostly people are just doing it to justify what they already believe, which, you know, David, data concepts turn into reinforcing the 1950s I want my wife barefoot and pregnant and having eight kids, and we all drink raw milk. And it's like, okay, what is wrong with you people? And why do you that's fine, but why do you then need to kind of try to legislate that for others? And I think that's where, that's where the friction happens. But I also just want to say just as that is like a, to me, really ignorant application of monogamy. There's plenty of people out there doing quote, unquote polyamory, and it just kind of means fucking around. And, you know, using that to justify being non committal, which is not, is not even wrong, but it's like, it would be true to be like, I just like to keep things casual, you know, whereas for me, polyamory is not really that casual. It's like a lot of work, yes, and a lot of deep commitment. So there's this projection of, like, poly is people who can't commit. It's like, is really, because I feel like I've committed to, like, the advanced setting of loving the last fucking eight years. So, you know, I totally, and that's the thing. Like, yeah, there's that idea of, like, the poly, and I think that's so it's so easy to smash the poly community around. Like, are you guys just not commit or avoid any like, you don't have any direction. You're not willing to, you know, commit to anything. You're not willing to be devoted. And it's like, I don't actually believe that when you do go into the deeper practice of it, that that's the truth. And just watching some, you know, some people online, and the way that they communicate about Polly, it's just like, I don't you're trying to teach something that I think you've really fully like, deepened with. And here's a tricky thing, because it really is an emergent style. So like monogamy, for good or bad, you can find a lot of references, yes, and you have to kind of look hard to find really good ones, but there's plenty of them, if you look right of healthy relationships, and people who have unpacked what that looks like and how to do it well, poly and ethical, non monogamy. You know, it's still fringe, like it's growing, but it's still really fringe. And so, like, for me, I had to, and I was lucky. I was in alternative communities of and I had older, open relators and poly people and relationship anarchy people and whatever you want to tantric, slutty people, wild, just wild freed up people who were fucking living very differently to what I knew. So there was references of, I like how they did that. I don't like how such and such managed that. Well, that was a mess, you know, I got to gather some of those, but, but it's rarer. So, you know. And it's one of the other classic things, like poly doesn't work. I tried it once, and it's okay. So did you try monogamy once? And then you've tried monogamy 15 times, and you still only average at it, if we're honest, you know, you're still just about getting by. But you tried poly once, and so then the system of poly is what's broken. Really, at the end of the day, it's people's ability to relate, people's ability to love, people's ability to navigate their own nervous system is what's going to determine good relating, regardless of what little category you you choose, you know? Yeah, what? So if we were like, Let's bring some containment to this. Conversations that we don't end up on the moon. But what were some of the key things that you took like that with deep learnings, or that you feel you got from Poly Emory that like, for me, one of the things that I see is like, you definitely have to learn how to fucking communicate, yeah. But what are some of the key things that you've taken from your experience with that kind of relationship? I think one of the biggest ones for me is learning to understand the human nervous system, both my own and a partner, slash partner slash lovers. And because there's things people can like ideologically believe, I believe we're allowed to be free, Jacob, you're free to do whatever you want. And then it's like, Why the fuck did you do that? I hate you. And it's like, too when people do things too quick, too fast, then triggers happen a lot more, right? And so one thing I learned early on was, like, a little traffic light system for communication, of like, with your partner talking about, okay, I'm going on a date with such and such and Okay, well, if you guys have a cuddle and a make out, that's green, I fully would celebrate that. If you guys, like, I don't know, got naked together and maybe had oral that would be yellow. It would be a little stretch, but I'd be okay with it. If you go over there and fuck her and don't come home tonight, that will be red for me. That would be more than I could handle. And I know that, and so that that gives a sort of reality of, like, Ah, don't. Like, I didn't have a lot of rules in my relationship with Mia, but we basically had an understanding of, like, let's just not red line each other's nervous systems. Yeah, that's a great fact that could be any relationship. Let's not red line each other's nervous. And the only difference is, with kind of open relating and poly you're getting, you're increasing, potentially, the number of opportunities to do that, because you're exposing vulnerable things. But I mean raising two kids and running a business together, you know, already that's, you've still got the possibility for redlining each other quite a lot, you know, yeah, but that thing of like, okay, potentially I'm gonna go fuck someone else. Oh, that's a spike right there for most people a lot of the time. And so learning how to dance with that and, and what's, you know, learning what healthy stretches, versus like, Yeah, I'm okay with everything. Oh, that was way too much for me, and it's it doesn't, you know, you don't just shrug it off the next day it's going to be sometimes hard to move through, sometimes irreparable to move through. So like that for me, that is deeper than like, communication skills, yes, epic. But like understanding that the nervous system has capacity limits. They can grow over time. You know, there's things I would experience now that five years ago would have put me in a panic, or if I can, you know, borderline psychotic, paranoid episode. I'm like, Ah, I felt a mild contraction when you said you wanted to spend the night with him, and then I had a workout and self pleasure, and then it's gone, love that for you guys. And it's like, ah, that that would have been death once, and now it's like a minor thing to process that might take me 20 minutes, you know. And I'm not saying that's I've become something mortal like touch wood. There's still things that could trigger me, but the capacity has changed a lot over time, and it's just understanding that, yeah, there's like, a mental, emotional side to it. But for me, kind of nervous system is is king at the end of the day, when we're triggering potential survival, fight, flight, freeze type responses if we go too hard, too fast. And I think that's what I see with, like, young poly couples. Is it cool? We're free to do whatever we want, whenever we want. It's like, Yeah, but like, do you care about that guy? Because that's gonna fuck with him a lot. And there's, there'll be, there's gonna be a limit, you know, there's gonna be an amount that is the right amount, the right time. And I think that's where the skills you have to develop, yeah, for me even just like applying that to my relationship. So I get to a point sometimes where, like, my nervous system has reached its window of tolerance, yep, and the woman that I deeply love is now the person I resent out of everyone, like, why am I even in this relationship? Why is she asking me to fill her water bottle again? Why is she doing it's like, Ah, I have reached my capacity, yes, and I could only imagine that in a poly relationship, there would be like, maybe it might not be as developed, like, as drip fed. It might be that, like you said, the spikes. Do you feel that there is any of that kind of, like, drip feed that can slowly infiltrate a poly relationship like that? There's, there's different approaches, you know, and like one, I dabble with different words and borrow from each of them. And one is more like, yeah, it's like the, let's call it the trauma, informed nervous system, lots of communication, having our little spreadsheets of who's seeing who when, kind of all that. Like California poly, you know, yeah, very nerdy Cali poly. And then there's kind of more like. A mystery school, wild, free Tantra poly, which is like, I'm just gonna throw myself on the altar and let myself be cracked open to love or whatever, you know and that they both can work. And what has worked for me better is having an awareness of both sides and mixing and matching, and because one side is working off, let's carefully try to navigate and be respectful and not trigger each other and have a kind of psychological awareness and lots of conversations. And it's skillful, but can be exhausting in itself. Like I had someone first kind of tantra babe I dated in like, 2012 2013 and she was like, Well, I'm going to be dating you. And I was like, No, I am on a mission. I didn't need to be sitting around with all you probably people having your little fucking meetings to manage emotions. I assume what you guys are like, what a mess. You know, I was like, my hungry entrepreneur era, and I knew that that style of having little process meetings all the time. I was like, What the hell is wrong with you people? I hate those. Yeah, and I have a little more tolerance and enjoyment, even for that now, but also because it's not my only method. Like I can source myself in deep connection to nature, to spirit, to self, you know, like, I've had multiple deaths in my life in the last few years, and I've really tried to use those to help open me into, like, surrender, you know. And after having, like, a best friend die, my dad die, a mentor die, really trying to be with those things that kind of fucking tore me open, you know, compared to that being upset that someone I'm with is sleeping over at someone else's house, it just seems kind of small. It's like, oh, it's like a minor inconvenience, you know, it's like, they, they're going to be alive and well, tomorrow we'll cuddle in the morning like, no big deal. But it's because some part of me has gotten better at sourcing itself in, like, the void or whatever, or in God, or in connection to, you know, being this, you've got the what I'm trying to understand and just correct me if I'm wrong, is, like, you're able to source what you need without going to that person. Largely, yes, like, I'm not saying I've, like, transcended my need for human connection and care. That's still very important. But, and I learned this from other people who, who I've witnessed them because, like, Oh, she really kind of handles a lot of this herself, and we process what we need to process, but there's a deep self connection and reliance. And I feel like that's also a part where, you know, people were jumping in open, relating and poly, and it's like, why that's I think so for me, I want to meet all of myself and be as unlimited of an expression of a human being as I possibly can, right? And so facing triggers around jealousy and insecurity is like, cool. That's that's on the track of the that's the mountain I want to climb anyway. So this process is helping me speed up my growth. You know? This is not primarily someone whose goal is to, like, build a family, build a business, have us like, my main goal is not like stable structure. My main goal is like spiritual evolution in life, you know. And so I see this as a speeder upper of that. So that's and it still doesn't mean I'm down for every trigger every time, like, I still manage what I'm available for, but that puts me very different than when, you know, like, I have friends who are like, just had their second kid. They're like, Why do you even do it? And I'm like, Okay, it's gonna be kind of hard to transplant into your this would not support your world right now. You know, this would be the worst thing you guys could do right now for me, because one of my, not one of my, the goal is to kind of be God, if you like, is to be connected to, you know, the one, yeah, and to live, you know, as humanly possible, to bring that through my life. This speeds that up. This is, this is part of that practice. So that gives me a much bigger reason than, like, me and the wife want to spice things up a bit. It's like, Yay, you know, like, under Ray, yeah, let's go to bras and things, yeah. Is like, is the juice go? Is the juice worth the squeeze? You know, it's like, if that's all you really want, like, try some handcuffs or something, you know, like, you don't need to fuck someone else. Maybe, maybe you do. I don't know. I feel like you know that it's your path, and you're not going to force it on anyone else, either. I can feel that like you're very clear, like, if you want to under, if you if you want to have a conversation around it, I'm going to speak to it. I can be a bit cheeky online and throw, you know, throw out the bait. But like, for me, it's like you're doing this primarily for yourself, not for anyone else. Yes, and you know, I do see and desire that there is the potential for embodied spiritual community where where relationship style is more. Consciously chosen, and where you know that that mixture of all these different styles is kind of speeding up growth and creating more magic interconnection, etc, which is, is not the same as I want everyone monogamous to like, it's not that, yeah, but I do have a desire to, I guess, deconstruct some of the assumptions that are built into mainstream society. And I think this is where the kind of poly mono argument, you know, which online it can be in that format, which I don't really agree with. But one of the reasons that people who really identify with monogamy and traditional structure. Who get can be unbidden on their high horse are missing is you guys are in the privileged position. You live in a society that's built for you. And you know, if you fill out a form or like someone's fucking dying in a hospital bed or whatever, it's like, cool. So you're the husband, and it's like, no, I'm a member of a seven part poly pod who, you know, these fuckers could have loved each other for 17 years and be deeply. It's like, Hmm, system doesn't recognize that. It's like, yeah, save a certificate from a priest. It's like, okay, let's, let's just unravel. I was a priest last week. This week. I'm not, you know what I mean, like, basically what it's like, anything when the structure is supporting our mode of being, we tend to not need to question the structure. And as soon as you start dancing outside of it, you're like, hang on a minute. This isn't fair. It's like, if I'm in a wheelchair, suddenly I get very aware that there's not a lot of ramps. If I'm not, it's like, steps, they're great. Yeah, I think that the awareness piece, like, yeah. And I like, what you said around like, yeah, creating a space where you could essentially, like, a community or something, where you could go and explore the different, like, what's beneath all these structures, yeah? That, for me is like, yeah, that's something that I feel like, with the with the community that I've got here on the Gold Coast, and we've really, like, nurtured and loved up on the last few years. There's people that I have a deep relationship with that is that isn't really like, it's not that we we go out on dates or make out or fuck even, it's energetically, like we're intimate, like I know things about you, I yeah, I share, and I've shared experiences with you that are deeply intimate, that have nothing to do with a physical sensation or a friction, which to, you know, kind of whatever these guys were using his example for, to those guys, that's already a radical level of openness, yeah. So for me, that was, and I didn't realize it that, because I've done the erotic blueprint. And for me, I'm an energetic whatever that is, yeah. And for me, like feeling is, like the energetic experience is so important. For me, you're energetically non monogamous. Energetically non monogamous. Yes, I'm fringe. Finally categories, bro, don't no one can understand me. I'm so different. Get your energy back over there. But for me, that was, uh, like, that gave me an understanding, like, oh, like, I really like the energetic depth, or, like, even the conversations we were having, like, I've only met you once at our friend's wedding, and then we were standing there talking about some radical shit without even asking, you know, how your day was. There was this really cool. And for me, like, that level of like, energetic alignment at the in the where we're where we're going with these conversations like this is exciting for me, yeah? And it's something that like feeds me. And I'm like, I feel like, I leave feeling like, filled up after these sort of conversations. And I'm finding that the more I open to those moments, the more range I have, yeah, for life, yeah. Rather than being like, you know, no day and I have to talk about what we said we're going to talk about, which was this, this and this. And I had a series of questions, this, this and this, and I and we, you know, that wouldn't actually serve where my where I want to go, or what I want to experience in this life. So I think, yeah, I'm really, really liking that. Love that one. The thing just popped in my head is, like, probably about two, maybe three years ago, was in a situation where married and have a girlfriend, and my wife and girlfriend are best friends, and I'm at a party in Byron, not really with them. They're there, but they're doing their own thing. I'm just cuddled up in the corner all night with two girls, three girls, different people, holding hands, talking. Not nothing sexual is happening, but there's a lot of intimates. A lot of just like, Oh, I've always liked this person. Here we are just smooshed up on the couch watching the evening and, you know. And I come home that night and I'm hanging out with Mia and Maz, and they're kind of like, lovingly teasing me again. Oh, you got to have your little Cancerian slutty cuddles all night. So happy for you, babe. And I'm like, oh my god, this is amazing. And I guess because the world we've been navigating is, you know, the tricky part is like, okay, fucking someone else is still kind of a deal that we need to work through. But that leaves a reality where cuddles and hand holding and eye contact, which 10 years. Before in the relationship I was in would have been like you fucking did you sat at a party with another woman, holding hands and talking all night, like, what the fuck you know? Would it be so unacceptable? And I had this moment of this just gratitude, of like, Ah, it's not just about this sex thing and they it's like for that type of intimacy to be freely available, and no one is shamed or triggered or threatened by it. In fact, it's, you know, they were teasing me, but they were loving me. Like, oh, you're getting what. That's what you need, isn't I'm like, That's what I mostly need, is a lot of Cuddles, you know? And it was like, Oh, my God, I'm just allowed to be myself, you know? And like, Yeah, nothing erotic involved. But because Eros and more challenging things have been navigated, that leaves these small intimacies that would be radical for a lot of people really available. And it was like, Ah, I don't I could never go back to a world where that wasn't welcome and celebrated. You know, that would be not, that would be detrimental to my life. Yeah. Well, put, man, I think that like, I'm just thinking of like, the the extreme, let's call it the extreme right, like, where guys can't even like, they'll shake a hand, but they can't even like, like, that's the extent of like, friendship. Like, we shake hands. Like, yeah, don't look in my eyes for too long. Yeah, yeah. And that, that is a, you know, for me, because men's work is my primary service to the world, it's like, we create intimacy at these men's events, which is so crazy, because by the end of it, everyone's like running around, like, cuddling, jumping on each other. There's like, guys just like, huddled up around a fire, or, like, just Army. I was like, oh, intimacy is such an important piece that we're missing or that we're enforcing on one other person our entire life, like the demand for one person to provide all of that when, as far as we know, we're pretty much built for like little hunter gatherer bands that will be touching all the time, sitting around, leaning on each other. You know that that level of group regulation and connection is what we're built for, and we wonder why we're all, you know, two parents, two kids sitting in front of the television set working 50 hours a week, where it's like, Why do I feel like something's missing? It's like we're deeply connected, like, as like, social primates, you know? And it's like, if you look at someone else, I'll hate you. And it's like, okay, that's not healthy. It's funny that you say that because, like, when we have, because I'm I love having people at the house, and that's my thing. And Meg has wasn't, didn't grow up like that as much, but she's now, like, really, like, we love having people in the house because it creates a different structure for intimacy to occur. Yeah, and whether that's just one other person, whether it's a man or woman, or we have like five people over all of a sudden there's a whole new dynamic for intimacy to reveal itself, whether it's like, instead of Meg and I eating dinner and then sitting down and watching another episode, so boom, the board games come out, yeah, or the guitar comes out, or we're at the back and or on the jiu jitsu mats and we're rolling around, and it's like, It's all of these things that we start to do that create more connection, yeah, and that. And I think there's a what I'm learning from from you and from other people that have opened my eyes to this, this other structure, which I I've never really experienced, but I've only seen it's like, Oh, this isn't about me going and fucking someone else, just to say that I've done it so I've now done the poly thing. No, I don't want to do it. It's like, can I just open my aperture a little and, like, widen my lens and be like, Cool, all right, I actually want to hold this person, say, I want to give this guy a hug, or I want to, like, pick this woman up and spin her around and, like, at the party. Or I want to, I want to go and have a deep conversation around this topic with this person. And that's not going to mean anything other than I'm following what feels good. It just means many loves. You know, polyamory technically means loving many, which could look so many different ways. Yeah, yeah. Epic, man, you cool to shift gears. Fuck yeah. Let's do it. I feel complete sex magic. A this is something I've been wanting to, like, I think read so much about yourself. I want to there's a selfish part of me for this podcast. Like, I need to understand what sex magic is for you. Because, like, when I got into and there's a whole heap of podcasts, if you want to go back and list, like, Listen Meg, like, surprised me with a sex dungeon once and like, it put me it red lined me at a specific point when I was bent over tied to this horse. But like for me, like sex magic, I, you know, I explored but play, I explored self pleasure practices. And I started to do that because I because Meg was having a sexual awakening, so to speak, and she was exploring this wider range of pleasure. And I was like, whatever she's experiencing, and how that's translating into her radiance, into her business success, and into the the woman that she's bringing me like, I want to explore this. I can see that there's value in this. And I want to explore my own sexuality a little more. Yeah, and like, from like having a wank on the toilet to then Tran, you know, to. Up leveling to running a bath, lighting candles and using oils and different things and like touching other parts of my body, non erogenous zones, and feeling all of this new sensitivity come online that was fucking earth shattering for me. But I'd love to know, like, kind of give us the rundown on sex magic, because I feel it goes so much more than just, you know, learning how to touch yourself and what it can mean for like manifestation or creation in your life. So where to start? Really, we know what sex is. Magic, for me, is about intentional creation of results, you know. And so when we bring sexuality and magic together. It's about using erotic activation, sexuality for intentional purposes, so that could be self connection, that could be connection to a greater whole, like the cosmos, you know, like, I run something called church group, self pleasure ritual. And you know, church should be a little bit cheeky, but it's also like, through this practice, we're connecting to the divine. We don't need a, you know, priest on stage to do that for us. We can go direct through the body. We can use it for transformation. We can use it for manifestation. We can use it for healing. We can use it for connection, community, etc. So really, that can look a lot of different ways. Like it could be candles in the bath. You could still have a wank on the toilet, you know, and still be sex magic. I will often take my goals and in my self pleasure practice. And so how that might look is, firstly, a stage of just connecting to the body, and usually, like, yes, a more holistic approach. So touching whole body would be part of that, not just straight for the cock, but also, there's nothing wrong with that either. So really connecting to the body and finding like activation and arousal with no real focus other than the body, and then at a certain point, like once, there is a what in chaos magic, they would call Gnosis. Once you're starting to enter like a bliss state or an altered state, then you might look at images, recite a mantra, hold a picture in your mind, and you know, from a slightly more scientific point of view, or just grounding it in what's actually happening. What you're really doing is using the state that you're the fact that you're super impressionable during arousal, to essentially drop a goal or an image or intention from like the conscious body of mind deep into the deep unconscious. So it's a bit like you might use hypnosis, but in my opinion, 10 times stronger. You know, because we all come hard wired with the fact that we have an arousal circuitry, and most of us have played with it a lot of times already. So there's, there's a pretty fast path to getting into an altered state through sexuality, and that can be used to, yeah, imprint essentially, essentially, for me, there's a goal of something that I want, if I can run it through my whole body and that arousal bliss state is still there, then I'm pretty congruent with that thing. Sometimes, if you're calling in something big, you're going to move like grief or shame or a blockage that, you know, I wouldn't have that blockage just to touch myself, to touch myself. But as soon as it's like my business has achieved this, or I've called in this partner, or this has happened, the journey suddenly takes this different flavor of like, oh, well, you got to work that through. And you might be crying, or you might be coming against, you know, finding yourself closing. And then I would use breath and movement to reopen and run that thing all the way through. And so this can be done a million different ways, like I do a lot of different ritual practices, exercises. But essentially, I feel like people a long time ago knew about this, and sex has kind of become this kind of junk food thing for the most part of like, you know, what's red tube and jerk off, or, like, whatever it is. But as as Tantra also teaches, you know, these states can be used to get us into much more high states of consciousness. So there's also a sense of like, this is part of I teach with ista as well, which International School, Temple arts, that world, which calls itself shamanic Tantra. It's almost like what Ayahuasca shamans are doing with Ayahuasca. We're doing with Eros as our primary medicine. And so the more skillful we get with opening the body into different states, the more different things we can use it for. And healing is a big one as well. Like healing past trauma, healing past life trauma, healing anything. You know, it can be done really quickly and really easily in like a one hour, to our bodywork session, which I would also see that as sex magic as well. Yeah, cool. And sex magical is in something just do by yourself. You can do it with a practitioner, and then you can also do it with your partner. I'm assuming partner, I run group things, which the first is not necessarily a group, or do you have everyone touching? If. Other, like, church. Thing I mentioned is, like a solo practice in group that even, even just that terrifies me, as for most people, and it's like, yeah, like, that idea of being in, like, being in a circle, yeah, and being guided into a sex magic practice and like, being unless I would feel, like, if you talk about the body, I can feel the closure of like, people might see me do something that isn't normal, yeah, feel that I'm like, Oh, wow, that's a And so imagine, like, let's say you went to four of those. You know, imagine the difference in your life if you've reached a place where, like, Oh, my connection to self and my erotic current is strong enough that I could be in a room with other people, and I'm neither ashamed of what they think, nor am I like lusting after. It's like I'm just connected in myself, and I'm at ease. You know, there's something around reconnecting. Because if you think of like, you know, we talk chakras, it's lower chakra stuff, you know, base and sacral. We have a lot of shame, guilt, fear around those levels of our being. And once that starts to move out, we move through the world differently, you know. And this can be done without, you know, no one's gonna touch anyone, fuck anyone, do anything, really. And I know this is considered weird, but some I reached a point where I'm like, it's kind of weird that we don't have that, yeah? Like, because sexuality is innocent, you know, yeah, and for me, like, my upbringing, sexuality was the devil, right? It was literally that it was, it was the devil. We don't talk about it, we don't, we don't, we don't approach it. And it's not, you know it's, it doesn't happen here, yeah. And it's like, it's funny, because you get it with certain age, like, I think it is happening here still. It's just pushed really deep into the shadows. The priest did what it's like when? Why does this keep happening? It's like, well, maybe because you guys created a religious system that shames something that is part of us, yes, and that is dysfunctional, you know? And so bad things happen. Yeah, sex at dawn was a book that I read and that, yeah, that kind of showed me that, ah, this is fucking shady. What's going on here? Like, yeah, the TV, the TV channels, they were promoting the happy Christian family, moral Christian values. And then they also owned all the porn channels, right? And that was, and they were selling them to sell to both sides, yeah? And the porn was making, like, five times more than the TV, and the Christians are watching, and the Christians will, and it was the men that were watching. It was, yeah, and it's crazy to to can, and I was like, Holy fuck. It was a mind blowing moment for me. I'm like, oh, so my desire and my lust and this, this, this pleasure state that this is not bad. I don't need to force this into the down deep within me and hide it or go in and watch porn in the darkness, I can, I can find a way to be with this energy that doesn't require me to hide it. Yeah, and, you know, I just want to be clear, like where I'm standing or what I'm kind of advocating for, is not the position that like just splashing sexual energy everywhere unconsciously, is not. That's not the world that I see as the solution either. That's that's actually something that happens because we're quite immature with it, you know. And people, let's say people, finally get the early stages of a little bit of sexual liberation. Then it's like, everyone wants to fuck everyone. Everything's running everywhere. And it's like, okay, well, essentially, what you've essentially, what you've got to look at is like, Okay, so we've reached, like, a sort of early teens level of maturity. Here. You've done one tantric workshop. Now you're a kind of tantric fuck boy. That's great, but we can't stop. We can't stop at that level. Yes, and you know, we're not trivializing abuse, trauma, harm that has come from the unconscious channeling of sexual appetite. So there's, there is, there is a logical and sane reason in the early stages of these Abrahamic religions of putting some rules on that stuff. Yeah, they weren't insane. They weren't evil. There was a Mrs. My read on it as kind of a religion history nerd, like there was an evolution happening where we're wanting to move from maybe more pagan earth based would have been more erotically connected religions that were a little more dark for one of a better word, not evil, but more connected to the darker, denser as this sort of Christian style frame comes in, which is much more like, you know, there is a higher consciousness being called by that stuff. But I guess because of the level of awareness integration, whatever it was done really violently. So. Like, okay, we're killing all the witches, we're shaming all the fertility cults. We're murdering all the whatever, you know. And so this is pushing of it into shadow. But this desire to add consciousness and connection to like the one I think was, is a functional part of spiritual evolution on the planet. It's just that it was done in like a repression, like a harsh father kind of form, when actually, we could integrate, like, Team Christian and team which into one synthesized thing, you'd have a functional society. Yeah, yeah, makes perfect sense. Yeah. I think about like, yeah. Like, deep roots, tall tree. I think it's like, you cut the roots off the tree that's growing to the sky. It's going to fall, fall over eventually, yeah. And that's what I feel like, the that reaching, and I did like I had, like the the psychedelic experiences, like, I now understand what it feels like. This feels like unconditional love. Oh, my God. And then for two years, you know, drinking medicine, ah. And then I drank medicine, and it went, wore it, yeah, all the way down, right, yeah. And I was like, What the fuck. And that was kind of the we've shown you this, but now we're going to show you this, yeah. And that was a real confronting, but necessary part of the journey for me is like, have to go back in and find this, this connection. And, yeah, far out, man. Like, I think you've really, yeah, I would say, like, my first 10, 1315, years of spiritual journey was ascension based, yeah. And then in my 30s, started to identify, ah, I'm not that in my body. I'm not that connected to my sexuality. I don't really know how to channel and use emotions. Well, I've been more like regulating them with, like, witness consciousness and, you know, intelligence and focus and whatnot. And then, okay, we have to unlock the descent journey. And then now I would say there's, there's a reasonable marriage of both, like, I could still work that more, but like, they are both somewhat in harmony. And it's like, but it's tricky to find the descent ones, because all of the dominant spiritual practices you first find, you know, meditation, Christianity, Abraham, Hicks, whatever it is, you know, it's all about, like, shout out to Abraham here. Love that stuff, you know. But it's like, Yes, great. You guys are so conscious, but at some point you're gonna have to stick something up your ass, because you guys are really fucking repressed and blocked. You're gonna have to open up. It's, there's no, there's no, there's no skipping it. You know, it's so funny when that came around, like, to put in something, when I had to, like, I was like, I have to put something in my ass. Like, it came to, like, this is the time I'm like, fuck what the fuck I mean, I don't know if you've ever sat there, like, on asset or stone or just in a whimsical moment of like, Isn't it crazy that, like, some parts of the body are like, Oh, the crown so holy, and other parts like, Oh, that's a bad part of the body. That part's evil, that's dirty, stay away from it. And it's like, you know, and it's coated in the kids. You're like, oh, poo, haha, you know? It's like, from day one, it's like, that's the bad part, you know? And it's like, ah, we've been on this planet for half a million years, and we still think that some parts are divine, and some parts are not, like, that's fucking insane. You know, feet are dirty, don't touch. And it like, yes, obviously practical, but it's but it was like, okay, so walking on the earth is dirty, so the earth is dirty. So, like, nature is dirty, so indigenous cultures are dirty. So, you know, there's, there's a It's not that hard to follow it and find, like, oh, there's kind of a colonial patriarchal thread in all of this fucking shit. Like, damn it, yeah, now and now, we've got a can sanitizer at the front of every fucking store, and, like, it on everyone's bench. It's, like, everything's about like, making sure that we're clean. Yeah, and that personally does my head in. And that was, like, my journey with, like, unlocking, like, I had some pretty somatic experiences with, like, self pleasure and bar playing, like, learning what it meant to open, yeah, and like, surrender, which was so foreign to me. And it's, you know, I think there's three or four paths that open up all this stuff that's in the shadow, and definitely sex is one of them. But for me, at the end of the day, it's death. You know, death is the one. It's like, birth and death are the biggest truths. You know, you've had kids. That's a huge initiation, right? Yeah, there's only one other that's as big, if not bigger than that, which is, like, the one when you leave the planet, you know? And it's like, we're so death negative in our culture, like we just don't want to deal with that. And that, yes, is the physical, practical of death. Like, you know, put them in of, don't look at it kind of thing. But it's also egoic death, letting go of control, you know, and like, if we look at the ass and the asshole, a lot of it is to do with, like, you know, when someone gets hanged or whatever, they shit themselves, there's a, there's a letting go. Of control. There's a surrender, and it's, there's a shame around all that. And it's really close to, you know, the fear of death, the fear of ego, death. Like, I remember growing up, this is so wild, my biggest fear was, like, I don't want to go to jail, because if I go to jail, be fucked in the ass, you know, and that would obviously mean that I'm gay, and I don't want to be I'm not gay. It's like a 13 years like, Where does this come from? Like, that would be the worst thing, and I'm afraid of it. And it was really ironic, because I got in lots of trouble with the law, and always this fear was like, fuck, am I gonna get in jail and get fucked in the ass? Because I really don't want that, because I'm not gay, okay? And it's just like, what has happened to my How did this get coded into me? Like, it's so strange that that was, like, the worst. That was the fate worse than death, you know, yeah, yeah. So, like, the idea of, and that was, like, such a terror, like, I was so scared of being gay, that's another like, the idea was, like, it was like, it was like, it was worse than death, yeah. And I think for like, suicide is pretty strong in the men. For men, it's a pretty fucked up thing that happens a lot for men in there between their, like, mid 20s and mid 40s. A lot like, it's fucked up. And I think for me, it has a lot to do with the shame, yeah. And from what I've experienced in the men's work space, in the processes that we provide, like, a lot of stuff tracks back to, like, sexuality, yeah, and not being able to explore that appropriately. And I think for a lot of men, myself included, like I said that that church self pleasures, but that what that scares me, yeah? And I'm pretty open, compared to, you know, a lot of the men, and if we're going to add some value here, in regards to some stuff that people can take away, because I want to kind of frame it is, like, if a guy wants to explore this, how does he go about it? If he's, if he, if he's, like, straight, like, this straight dude that's, like, always done what he's always done. And he's like, kind of, he's feeling the pool to explore this, where I can feel those deeper desires and is scared of them. What is, what are some steps that he can take if we're going to put the teacher hat on you? Yeah. I mean, in real life, this would be very tailored to where, what where someone is at in their journey. But I think for me, a lot of this started with tracking fears and shadows and then going towards the ones that I felt like I could dare to go towards, yeah, and so I just want to touch on something underlying what you just said. You know, we're afraid of certain elements of sexuality, but we're really also afraid of feeling and raw emotion. And I think that's why sexuality can be challenging for men, because we, you know, there's all this conditioning around wanting to be like a good lover or a good whatever, but the journey to actually having that is about surrender and being able to open and being able to, like, surf the currents of like, wild emotion and energy, which is, by definition, if we're going to use these terms, the feminine. And so the practical approach is, on some level, you need to find a way to integrate, quote, unquote, your feminine which we could debate whether that's even a good label, but by which I mean emotion, feeling Eros, being out of control, letting go of control, letting go of power, although ironically, power is on the other side. So like, it depends where you're at. But like, feeling feelings, being with feelings would be a start. So like, you know, depending on how early in the journey, like, I think men's work and men's groups are really a good start that's not already there. Of, like, being able to talk about feelings is a good start. But then the next step is being able to actually connect to and express feelings. And then I think if someone is ready to go into the sexuality space, I think Tantra workshops are a really good start. If you're really scared beginner, I things are good because then there's nothing going to be there that's really that scary. It's just, you know, I think things like self pleasure without agenda is really good. So, like, you know, we're all trained to kind of visualize, you know, since I was in high school, it's like, oh, this girl that I want to fuck at school, the teacher that I want to fuck at school, or whatever improbable scenario that makes me aroused. You know, yes, the, you know, this, this pop star, it's like, okay, a 13 year old boy, you're never gonna get that. But I understand why it's exciting. All that is sort of a barrier to the to the real thing. By the real thing, I mean, like, you know, standing in the bathroom with the door closed and doing 20 minutes, or 10 minutes of just self, touch, like legs, belly, body, breathing, feeling what's there, and me just meeting what's there. I think is really where it's at. You know, if you're a super mask achiever, fit bro, dude, you got to find some opposites. You know, if you're a kickboxer, fucking take up yin yoga. You know, it's like, it's just, it's almost laughably simple, but it's like, Bay. The game for me is integrating opposites. Yeah, so if I'm a super cognitive genius fucking crypto trader, you gotta find a way to feel your feelings. Go get a fucking Tantra massage. If that's too much massage and body work, you know, just whatever you know you're lacking in, start leaning into it. And it doesn't have to be. It's another mask thing. You don't have to fucking skydive and throw yourself into things that are getting scare the shit out of you. It can be gradual, but I would say self pleasure. Dance sounds hilarious, you know. But like dance, non linear movement, things that are going to open up, flow, a really good place to start. Yeah, that's, that's so, yeah, I love it because, like, we have a lot of guys come through the men's circles. They come to the retreat since, like, there's, like, yeah, how do I keep in? We did this this year, we actually brought in a whole lot of more creative arts into the actual men's retreat. So it wasn't just the wrestling and the breath work and the and the and the, you know, the kind of, the spike in the shame circle and all this crazy stuff, you know, we brought in, we had a brother come in, and we did dance one morning, and all the guys were, like, so enlivened. And I think, you know, dance is such a for me. What's really unlocked that part for me is like, singing, yeah, singing has been huge. Like, none of this is actually about, like, there's no, there's no sex, it's, it's like there's energy flowing and like, I think, like, what I'm learning more and more is around, like the energetics, rather than it being, I have to do it this way, yes, and this is the path. It's from to work from the opposite, some from, from kind of first principles. You know, the way I look at it is that we are all of it. And, you know, there's in a lot of, like, spiritual community, there's like, a really reinforcing of, like, gender identity and norms, and that's fine, like, if you didn't really get to anchor those in your life, it's probably good to inhabit them and feel what it feels like to be. I finally feel like a man, you know, great. And, oh, I'm so feminine. I'm a woman, you know, awesome. But from like, a soul point of view, or from a spirit point of view, you're fucking everything. And from that first, you know, day of like, Oh, got a little dick. He's a boy Where's blue. Shouldn't be crying, you know, it's like, it's like, it's all loaded in so quickly and so deeply that you can be 50 years old and haven't cracked the code that, like, spoiler alert, you're all of it. And like, how do we get to a world where, like, dancing and singing, like, even the fact I'm like, Yes, take up some feminine practices like singing. Like, how the fuck is that inherently what? What in what way has that been linked to, like, biology and also gender. That's fucking insane, yes, but what because the guy in how much to like growing up like, it was so confusing to me that, like, all the girls would love the guy singing and playing guitar, even though something in me was, like, gay, you know, oh, and like, why is it because, like, this feelings, because there's vulnerability, and it's like, I'm going to be as tough as I can possibly be, and in my, like, pre teen logic, that would make me more attractive to women because I'm doing a good, you know, a good performance of masculinity. I guess I wouldn't use that language, you know, but like, I'm doing a good job of pretending that I'm really masculine, so therefore women who are feminine would want me. Yeah, and then in my 20s and 30s, and even more in my 40s, the more I've embraced all these things that I like taboo or opposite or whatever, the more secure I feel in myself, which I am in a male body. So and I'd be like, Oh, you're such a such and such type of man. I'm like, it's funny, because I just started doing all the things that I wasn't really meant to do as a man, and I've become more full, which has made me more of a man. Like, it's a the categories are a mess, is what I'm trying to say, yeah and yes. Exploring them and anchoring the side that you were supposed to is great, but unlocking the side that you were not supposed to is going to give you massive returns. You know, man, I just like, I love that because, like, I kind of track ancient culture as, like, my reference point, or culture in, in a sense, like these things that have rich, rich culture, and I look at like African culture, or I look at like, even, like, my lineage is back to Ireland, and the Irish culture they'd seen. They never stopped. They never shut up. They don't shut up. Sing it, and it's like, there's such a beauty to it. And they had a relationship with this, yeah, with almost the mystery. And they would sing to it. They'd like, they went through, you know, really hard times, and song was what they did to alchemize it, yeah? And that's the way they move their grief. And I think that that's a big part that's missing from a lot of people's lives is like these practices that aren't masculine or feminine. They're just a way of moving Yeah, energy, yeah. And that like at funerals, when people like, don't. Let themselves make noise or, or they don't like, have songs that allow energy to move, like move through the space. It becomes this, we sterilize our existence. Yeah, and it's, it's a bit of a tragedy in my in my opinion, it's, it's such a thick layer of repression. And, you know, I'm sure you're across this. It's kind of like the conscious, not even conscious, like the hyper masculine, alpha bro, kind of internet, podcasty world, you know, yes, like, you know, rate cheeks and what's your body count, all that stuff. Oh, it's like, it's like they've refined fragility to like a badge of honor, you know, yes, of like, like, if I get pussy, I'm a hero. But if she said, and it'd be like, anyone who's had more than three partners, is like, run through and I'm like, what you want someone who's not even good in bed, is that, what, because you're so fucking fragile that you need to be, like, dominant. And it's just like, it's like this inversion, you know, of like, the thing that we say it is, is what it's not. It's like this, I'm an alpha male. It's like, you're bro, you're fucking terrified. And to just loop back to where we started, you know, that world has a real shamey Look at polyamory, and it's mostly along lines of, like, anyone who lets their Bitch Fuck another man is like, not a man. And it's like, oh, you have no idea the skill and the embodiment and the ability to meet your own emotions that will be required to do that. But it's just such an interesting inversion. For me. It's almost like, if someone tells you something isn't masculine, go do that thing and get comfortable with it, and you will, ironically be more masculine. Yeah, that is the funniest bit. And then you become and then that then attracts like. For me, what I've found when I've when I've done that, I'm like, I'm gonna go and do the thing that I'm not meant to do, and when I've done it, I then it's not a big deal anymore. Oh my god. And then I can, then the relaxation that I feel in my nervous system, I then become a space for more like more of what I wanted in the first place. So about seven years ago, I did a workshop that was all men. And I didn't really know this, but I kind of had a clue, but I didn't know that. Basically, the bulk of the week, in various forms, was us learning cock massage on each other, right? Yeah, so I probably gave like 12 cock massages that week, you know? And I'm a lot more I'm still not really super gay in my actual sexual appetites, right? I would say there's, there's little percentages of, like, queerness and fluidity that has come into my identity over time. But then this was really not the case, like I was pretty much a straight dude who's into Tantra and into this and that, but, you know, whatever I'm going for, I've gotten wasn't that, you know, and I remember driving out with the guy that I drove in with, I was like, Do you feel like, more gay or less gay than when we got there? And it was just like, we just laughed, because it was like, it was such a shadow had been lifted. Of like, you know, really teenage stories. Of, like, if I do this, I'm gonna become gay, you know. And, like, the funniest thing is, like, there was one gay dude and everyone else was very, very straight. So even though we were doing body work and touching genitals, you know, we had like, little kind of a temple night one evening, and it was so it was just dude sitting around. It was the same as, like, dude sitting around with beer without the beer, like there was nothing. Wasn't like we were all like cuddling and making out or something. It was like just dudes sitting there being very normal hetero dude bros, except we had done like, some nature ritual and then, like a cock massage ritual that that afternoon, but it hadn't opened up any like, gayness, which, which, at the time, which sounds it's even hilarious that I'm saying this, because it's a while ago now, but at the time, there was something in me was like, Oh, this didn't, like, make us, like we're not suddenly leaning over and making out because I gave you body work like there's nothing so not so. What was so wild was, in a way, nothing about my essence and my desires had changed at all. The only thing that was different was I had less stories around male bodies being around each other and genitals and touch. It was just like, Oh. Like, if I want to be like a tantric healer person, I'm going to touch Janet, like, I opened up. I was like, Okay, well, I'm going to work with men and women. I'd only been like, I will only work with women. And it's like, yeah, that's because you're still personally invested in like, what does this mean? And as I was driving away, I was like, ah, it literally means nothing. It just means that the fears that I had as a sort of 13 year old, 16 year old, were very immature. Like, what if we have to sit next to each other? Maybe that's gay, you know, and it's like there was that. So that was the level of intelligence that was coming out of my body, of like, well, if we do that, that'd be gay, and then I don't want to be gay because, because what other school boys are gonna laugh at you and bully you? It wasn't even about like, sexuality. It was just about like. Or being shamed or being categorized, yeah? And we drove away and I was like, oh, like, Am I more gay less? It just doesn't, just doesn't make any sense anymore that that was even a thing. You know, it's not like that story is actually just dissolved. They just weren't linked together. Yeah, just like nothing about that was gay or not, in fact, just that that line of thinking and questioning just is really childish, like it was just like, ah, like, if gay is someone who was sexually attracted to and has sex with other men, it's like, I am not more that I'm not less that I'm just not really in that dialog. And it was like, ah. So the main thing that happened was those narratives got freed out of my body, I guess, which was like, Oh, that's not what I thought it would do, yeah. That's um, that was like, for me, when I put, when I got a butt plug and put in my ass, I was like, What is this gonna make what is what does this now make me? Right? And it literally like, I was like, nothing, nothing. It doesn't make me anything, yeah, I was like, Ah, cool, all right, like, my own finger, isn't that gay? It's like, You're gay with this. How would that work? What does that even mean, you know? And it just like, it just like, like, it just made me like, kind of chuckle. Ah, okay, cool, yeah. And now then I just went about my life, yeah? And I definitely had more openness and sensitivity to feeling all those things once I like, tune, to and I was like, Oh, my, yeah, I can feel better. But it's like, oh, I didn't that story that I thought it was going to amplify or or make me that no longer exists, yeah. And it's to me this, really, this is where it's at, you know, to kind of link it back to the sex magic, tantra, polyamory, all these things, what I'm interested in, beyond these concepts, is the somatic, the living, of something in the body. You know, that's more interesting to me than, like, yes, conceptually, I'm polyamory, but you're like, fucking all shut down and you've, you know, or, you know, monogamous people this or that. It's like, what people can embody is much more relevant to who I would want to be around than what category they've decided they're in or what they identify you know, I'm this kind of spiritual person. It's like, oh Lord, just like, and I think there's something for me that, you know, we're really in the Age of Spiritual materialism, where we get these concepts and we just make them part of our personality. Our personality. We build a business out of it. And, you know, I do this is, I'm not shaming the whole thing, but if I really deeply tune into what spirituality is, it's actually the stripping away of concepts, you know, not the collecting of like, I've got this cool idea, this sophisticated idea. I'm actually a tantrum baby. I'm a Lemurian. Preach there. So it's like, okay, you're fucking mentally ill. But let's just put that aside. I'm interested in what I can embody, and different practices have opened me up more and like, from that point of view, like working on my deadlift has changed me as much as putting things in my ass or eye gazing with like, they've all done things to me that have made me different, and some of them are not categorized as, like spiritual, but for me as a again, with this integration of the shadow, like I was not an athlete or a gym person or whatever. So in my 30s, I took up, like, getting into weight training and facing a lot of like fears of like, the people I used to hate were the ones, you know, the jocks were my enemy. And so if I lift weights, you know, if I, if I lift a heavy weight, will I become a jock? And it's like, that's the same as, like, if you stick something your ass, will you become it's so childish. And as soon as I started doing it was like, Oh my God. Like, I'm stronger, I'm fitter, I feel better, I'm more embodied. It's like, Yeah, that. That is spiritual practice, you know, love it. Love a man. I'm feeling close to complete. Is there anything else that you feel we need to traverse, or anything else that's sort of sitting there? Um, nothing burning, if I'm honest, I feel like we covered some really good ground. Yeah, yeah. I think yeah. Just want to, like, reiterate with the the conversation that we've had, if anyone's listening like, this is, this is like beyond like, for me, this is like, taking a look at what's beneath a lot of the stuff that's being shared online right now. Yeah, but it's sort of going another, another layer deeper, and there's going to be more and more layers. But like, if you're someone who is identified with something and it becomes like, rigid, like, just like, what Dane said is, like, what's the opposite of that? And can you go and engage with it, and find a way to meet it, to see that it's not going to actually change who you inherently are. At your core, it's Yeah, and I guess, I guess this is because, for me, like, I work with wealth, I work with sexuality, I work with kind of, like magic, slash the occult. I work a lot with, like Soul and soul purpose. There's a, you know, Shadow Work. There's this collection of all these things. But really, it stems from a belief that the really, the goal is wholeness. Yeah, you know, the goal is not to be good. The goal is not to win. The goal is not to do all these things that we're kind of conditioned into which are kind of quite lopsided things. The goal for me is just, can I become more whole every. Day every year that I'm alive and that that, because that's not what everyone is taught or what they're working towards, that can produce some interesting results. Like, he just took up dance, but I thought he was a kickboxer, and it's like, yeah, the dude is trying to become more of a whole being, yeah? And that also takes out, like, let's say you are taking on these things that are a little bit the opposite. You don't have to become the best at them. Yes, you know, you might be the jujitsu Black Belt who takes up fucking contact dance or whatever as just as a little counterbalance, yeah, or the, you know, the IT nerd who gets in a little bit intersexuality. You don't have to become the tantra guru. But, like, there's a such a high return on like, just one little droplet of that in your potion will make you a richer, deeper human being. And I think I know we haven't really been talking from this point of view, but I know it's there. And when it comes to sex, relationships, attraction, like the polarity conversation is the one that's popular, but there's a deeper power than polarity, which is wholeness. And like, wholeness is the most attractive thing, and it also gets you more ease at polarity. Because if I'm, if I'm all of it, sure you can DOM me. I'm not cool. I'll be you a little. I'll scream and do what you tell me, actually, now I'm going to Dom You. Actually, I can be light. Actually, I'm dark, actually, I'm in my mask. Actually, I'm kind of feminine, like it's all available. So polarity is very easy if you are not afraid to be all of yourself. But that wholeness when it comes to attraction, both sexual, but also, like business friends, whatever. Like people who are fully developed are really enjoyable to be around, yes, like, because we all inherently want that deep down, I think so that that's, I think that's the final bit I want to drop, is like, like, self actualization, becoming whole, realizing that the soul or the essence of us is everything. It's not a man or a woman or a light or a dark or a goody or a baddie or whatever. It's fucking everything. And that's, that's where I'm trying to come from. Fuck yeah. Thanks for sharing, man, this has been, yeah, I feel like I've, I've taken so much from this. So we've got a few things coming up, bro, if you wanted to plant the seed, we put everything in the show notes, of course. But is there anything that you want to invite people into or share a little bit about your work? Yeah, I got a few things on the cook that'll be all around for 2025 so I have something called permission, which is a mentorship for conscious leaders, people who want to, like, make a ripple in the world, particularly around the energy of, like, maybe you've got something amazing, but you're a little bit afraid to get canceled, or you don't want to be too much. Want to be too much, or you you know you're at a certain level, but if you go to the next level, it'll be scary. Like, I'm really good at that, and I'm really good at supporting people in that. So that's called permission, and it's a it's an ongoing and I also have something called the dark field, which is more 100 bucks a month, and it's a connection to sex magic, self, pleasure meditation, etc, like every month we do online, uh, ritual. So for people who want to connect more to that magical, dark side, but not really dark side, like wholeness, that's that's there. You can follow me on Instagram. I share all my stuff there, and I just put out a song called magic is real, which, you know, if you want to just get the little microdose and maybe change your worldview a little bit, that's on Spotify, you can listen to that. We're going to put all those in the show notes. Man, so good to connect and spend a bit of time with you. Man, I feel like, Yeah, this is the beginning of, yeah, a lot of cool conversations and yeah, a deeper relationship. So, bro, I appreciate you making the trip down the mountain and, uh, for sharing your wisdom with us. Thank you for having me, bless up, beautiful people, peace, yo, yo, yo. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of sex, love and everything in between. Now, if you'd like to stay connected with Meg and I, you can head on over to Instagram and follow me at the Jacob O'Neal and where can people find you lover, at B dot. Meg, dot. O amazing. And yeah, guys, check out the show notes for all other information in regards to what we've got coming up. And yeah, we're super, super grateful that you guys for taking the time to listen in to this podcast. If you do have any topics or any questions like I said, hit us up on Instagram, and we'll see what we can do. Apart from that, have a beautiful, beautiful rest of your day. Thanks for being here. Big, big. Love you.