Ep 97: The Sacred Role of Brotherhood in Modern Fatherhood with Adam Jackson

The mask you wear isn’t the man you are - discover how authentic brotherhood and fatherhood transform modern masculinity in this week's newest episode with Adam Jackson.

Jacob sits down with Adam Jackson, co-founder of Sacred Sons, for an intimate and unfiltered conversation about what it truly means to be a man, father, and leader in today’s world. From birth portals to brotherhood circles, we dive deep into the journey of authentic masculinity.

This episode is a powerful reminder that true strength comes not from doing it all alone, but from having the courage to be seen, supported, and held by your brothers. Whether you’re a father, on your men’s work journey, or simply seeking deeper connection, this conversation will inspire you to step more fully into your authentic power.

They also riff off on:
• The sacred initiation of becoming a father
• Why men need to take off their masks and get real
• How men’s circles create profound transformation
• The power of receiving vs always giving
• Moving from lone wolf to supported brother
• Birth as a ceremonial portal
• The ancient technology of men’s circles
• Learning to ask “is there more?” and “how can I support you?”
• Balancing service to family with service to community

and many more.

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🔥 Let’s stay connected:

•Follow Meg: @the.meg.o

•Follow Jacob: @thejacoboneill

🔥 Connect with Adam:
Instagram: @adam___jackson
Website: sacredsons.com

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Jacob & Meg also coach individuals and couples—slide into their DMs for more info!

#menswork #authenticmasculinity #fatherhood #sacredbrotherhood #vulnerability #transformation #leadership #podcast #masculinity #personalgrowth

Transcript

1:07

Um, yeah, these moments of initiation into what it means to be human, when we when we allow ourselves to remove the mask. You know, this is a big part of men's work. Like take off the mask that you that you can do it all on your own, that you got it all together, you know, all the things. Or take off the mask, that you believe you're not enough. Take off the mask, that you can't do it, that you're not doing it right? You know these, these are the type of things that you know go on inside the minds of men as as I've seen it, and when we take that mask off, we get back to the essence of who we are and what we're here to do in this lifetime. Yo, yo, yo. Lovers. Welcome, welcome. Welcome to sex, love and everything in between where the O'Neills you're here with Megan Jacob, and this is the place we have really uncensored conversations about sex, intimacy and relationships. We're super excited you're here. Enjoy this episode. You yo, yo. Lovers, hello, hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of sex, love and everything in between. And Meg is currently out taking our beautiful son, oshin, for a walk, and I'm here having a conversation with a man that's deeply inspired me and my journey with men's work. And yeah, we've got Adam Jackson here. He's the co founder of sacred sons. He hosts the sacred sons podcast. And yeah, this has been something that I've wanted to reach out and make happen. And all year I've been trying to reach out. And I'll be like, Oh, I'll send the email now. I'll send the email now, and I can now understand like I had to go through the birth portal. I had to become a father to really arrive here on this call with you, bro. To I believe, like, get as much value as I can, but also really share some some deeper truths with with our audience, man. So thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. Yeah, Jacob, thank you for inviting me. Thank you for keeping me in your thoughts. And congratulations on the birth of your little baby, ocean, 33 days, 33 days of life. How precious and what a beautiful ceremony. Just before we started recording, you were telling me a little bit about the birth, and I have a daughter, Winona, who's 10 months so I have four children. My oldest is 10 years old, and my youngest is 10 months old. So I am just as much of a new dad as as what you're stepping into as well. So I really feel you on that journey. And congratulations to you and your family. Amazing man. Thank you so much. And yeah, hearing that like, I'm the eldest of four children myself, and I grew up in the country with siblings and just nature. And for me, that's the it's so amazing. What's come online since Oh Sheen has arrived. It's like, oh, I want space. Ah, I want family. Ah, all of a sudden, my time is sacred. Now, Netflix gone, scrolling gone. These things are no longer valid. They no longer hold priority, or these distractions are no longer have have as much of a hold on me because there's someone watching me, there is someone that that really is not that needs me at the moment, but will need someone to look to, to model how to move through this world. And it's been a massive it's been a beautiful, beautiful wake up for me like a another layer. And as we were talking before this idea of a ceremony, the birth ceremony. It really feels like that was a wonderful experience. And now there's this kind of ongoing ceremony of like, how, how am I moving today? How am I feeling today? And what is, what is my intention? And that has this whole new depth of meaning, because ocean is like laying in the bed next to me, and his eyes are looking at me. I'm like, Oh, this is not just about me anymore. Yeah. And how powerful for us as fathers to be a part of the ceremony of birth. You know, I feel like there's so much in the in the spiritual community here. There's so much attention given to the plant medicines, which I revere and honor, or to even the men's work, or whatever modality you choose, the morning ice bath. I believe that all ceremonies are trying to get back to that one singular moment when we first crossed the portal into this life and as a father to be present, not only for the birth of the child, but for the for the mother to be just supportive, to be encouraging, to be acknowledging it's enough, and if more men could have that experience of full presence as their children come into this world, just that alone, would make this world a better place. Oh, man, yeah. You're speaking my language. I really what, what just like the words that were coming was like, I'm not going anywhere, like I'm not going to run, I'm not going to hide, I'm not going to let someone else step in and play the role that I was. I'm here to play for you, that I'm here to embody, that I'm here, that I'm that is my sacred duty to you as my woman, and that is that that is really, really landed for me during the birth. It's like I I was meant, I'm meant to be here. I'm meant to be standing alongside you, and so you have a lived recent experience to give you that motivation not to run, but to stay, to be the mountain, to be the pillar, to be the safe space, you know, to be a force of of generosity, even Well, not all men have that. Not all men have a lived experience to inform them. So how do we get and it's not, it's not to say we don't have trials and tribulations in life that encourage us to move on, right? However, like, family is sacred, you know, the the idea, like, I have been someone who has ran in my life. You know what I'm saying? Like, I know the sense. I know the I know the urge to, like, I'm out of here. I'm done. I can't sit in this. And so how do we as men create those experiences for ourselves to not only to test us, but to give us the the the amount of capacity, emotional capacity, to stay and I believe that's what men's work does, you know? And I, I'm curious about your experience. You know, you joined sacred sons when we were in Australia last year, yeah, man, it was phenomenal. I I was blessed to to have Carly as my as the leader of the the group that I was a part of. And I had, I had just an incredible experience, man, like I had always seen what you men were creating over in in America, and I was like, this is this speaks to me, because there's a ceremonial aspect to this. There is a cultural aspect to this, and there is a reverence for the natural world that speaks to me and for my my journey. Just to put into a sentence, it's like, it's been through the plants, deep reverence for the plants. Man like that has been that has been how I found my way home. And then I realized I looked around, I was amazing women doing the work around me. And I was like, ah, there's one thing missing here, and it's the men. It's my brothers. So that's where men's work came in for me, and it was really the it landed a lot of the things that the plants revealed and gave me a place to move through the world, where I could actually, like, have some really solid mirrors and some really solid moments of of of breakthrough, because I was around men, yeah, yeah. And my experience that I had, I had a beautiful, beautiful experience at Sacred suns, and the way that the Kali led the group that I was in, and the energy and the the congruence and the way that the team moved together, was a beautiful experience for me, man and I had, I actually had a huge, huge healing in that space around something that I thought I dealt with, and it was like a new layer that had to that had to be peeled fast, had to be peeled back. Yes, but there's something about the power and the sacredness of the collective witness of other men. I just want to say Kali is the best prayers up for my brother CO at this time. And yeah, that's what in the beginning, when we were conjuring up this thing we call sacred sons. That's what we saw. Was missing broadly from this work. I saw men's circles as 50 year old white guys sitting around in fold out chairs under fluorescent lights, talking about how much their situation sucked, or how much, you know, debt they were in. And there's more. There's more. When we have been unlocked by the plants, and I see this work when with the collective witness of men, with the circle, this is ancient. This stuff is in our bones. It's in our DNA. And so when we circle up with other men, it's a it's an incredible opportunity to integrate those big blast off experiences which are largely individual. And so I've had my own experiences with Ayahuasca, where it was so profound, but it was, it was my own. It's a dream within this dream of life. But what you're speaking to when you had this breakthrough had, you know, to be held, supported and witnessed by others. It grounds in the capacity that we have to heal. Mm. Yes, I, I resonate. That is exactly, if it's to be witnessed, because I've had so many deep moments on the mountain with, you know, with, with Ayahuasca, with and San Pedro has been my my medicine, and my teacher for like, eight years, like, watch fuma. It's, it's constantly, and once, once it's it's once I worked with that medicine, I learned that, ah, that medicine is working with me and I'm working with it. And this is a relationship. I then saw the value in awe. So when I go to work with men, I'm working with men, and men are working with me. It's not just me having the experience, it's them witnessing me having the experience that act that deepens and grounds in the healing or the the embodiment that takes place in those spaces. Yeah, I don't. I agree with you that relationship, and I feel, you know, grandma, working through me. I feel the the fire tending working through me. We were talking about sweat lodge earlier too. Like sweat lodge was the experience that really got my feet on the path, you know, I had, I found a sweat lodge. How long it's probably 13 years ago now. I was coming out of a big breakup in my life. You know, we had a house together, we had a dog, we owned a business together, and it was, it was a really challenging moment in my life, and a good friend invited me up the mountain to go to sweat. And so I got up there, and we're sitting in circles. Is the first time I ever sat in a circle like with intention to share what was going on in my life and the man pouring Lodge, his name is Daniel thunder Hawk moon. I still sit with him to this day, shout out to the moon family. And as it came around to me, he said, Why are you here? Which is a question I now ask every man that I come into contact with. And I, you know, I was filled with resentment man of this breakup. And I said, you know, she did this, she did that. You know she left. And he just looked at me and said, Do you know what all of your relationships have in common? You are in all of them. And this was the first time a man had looked at me dead in my eyes and given me an honest reflection, not to tell me it's going to be okay, not to appease my judgments of the situation, right, but to like, look me dead in my eyes and into my heart and say, Hey, man, take ownership for this. Take ownership of your part. And I would say that began my mentor journey. Not that it was, it was a co Ed space and everything, but I was like, Holy shit, I need a mentor, you know, like, I could, I could use some, I could use some feedback from other human beings. I don't got it all. I don't got it all figured out, you know what I mean? And it's okay. It's okay men to admit that. Like, we don't have it all, and we've been sold a lie, and that lie is that you have to do it all on that you have to do it all on your own, and if you ask for help, it's weakness, if you don't have the answer to lie. And that is fucking bullshit. And so what? What men's work also does nothing hides. Nothing hides in these circles, you know, and even the things that you don't even know are there. You thought you did all the work with the plants, and then you're like, Whoa, the work is never done, my friend. And there's something that's that is very sacred about men doing this together. And, you know, I found it to be so powerful that I've taken it on as a part of my life's work and mission, and to bring this to other men, and, you know, to to bring presence to these things that I'm speaking of. And you know, globally, there's a lot of conversation around men's mental health. People are not doing well. This is a wild fucking time right now. It truly is. It truly is. And so just like where you're at with your family, what you will find out, and what I have found out, even though you're willing to stand in and stay it still takes a village. It takes community. Moms need support from other. Mothers, fathers need to connect with each other and be real and talk about what's going on. This is the way forward. It's not about suppressing. It's no longer about medicating. It's no longer about numbing. This is the old way and the new way. It's about really expressing ourselves from a place of vulnerability and truth and honesty and getting real. And I found that to be the most powerful medicine on the planet. Yeah, I, I concur. Man, I don't have much more to add to that, other than, like, that's been the receiving I believe. Is one of the hardest things that I've had to remember to do that fierce independence and that I don't need anything, but I'm willing to give everything. And this was something, something that I learned on a bridge in Peru. I was going through a huge, a huge sort of meltdown. On the first journey, we went to a Yeah, wonderful, wonderful sacred site, and I was walking, and I was just started crying, and I was purging, and I was like, I'm just so sick of trying to, trying to hold it all together. And we stood on this bridge, and we looked down the river, and the river was flowing away from us. And my mentor at the time, Gemma, she said, just let the river take it all. Let it take it all. And I just stood there, and I could just feel all of this weight, of the of response, of this responsibility that I took thinking that it was mine, when it really wasn't for I had to look after this person. I had to be this for this person. I had to be this. And it was this constant shape shifting to be everything for everyone. And I was letting it go. And I thought that was the end of us, like, all right, I feel light now. She's like, No, turn around, and we turn around, and the river started rushing towards us, and she's like, now, receive all that you deserve. And that completely and utterly rocked me, because the letting go, I was like, Oh yeah, I've got to, I've got to, you know, let go of the baggage, or I've got to kill the boy to become the man. All of these terminology of like, healing and fixing myself was so intoxicating, but then to turn around and actually feel pleasure and feel joy and actually have my desires met. That was what really opened me up to the idea of, like, Oh my God, there's so much more here than I could have ever imagined. Yeah, yeah, these moments of initiation into what it means to be human when we when we allow ourselves to remove the mask. You know, this is a big part of men's work, like take off the mask that you that you can do it all on your own, that you got it all together, you know, all the things. Or take off the mask, that you believe you're not enough. Take off the mask, that you can't do it, that you're not doing it right. You know, these, these are the type of things that you know go on inside the minds of men, as as I've seen it, and when we take that mask off, we get back to the essence of who we are and what we're here to do in this lifetime. And it seems like when you started to receive from that river, maybe life started to provide a little bit more sustenance and nourishment your way and to the point where, here you are with a beloved and with a child 33 days in, yeah, man, and that, you know, that was what I realized, was I was, I wasn't honoring the, you know, the guiding principle which we learned in in Peru, which was Ayni, which is sacred reciprocity, that nothing goes one way, giving and receiving, receiving and giving when we're doing it in alignment. That is when you give, you receive, and when you receive, you give. And that blew my mind. And then to actually step into a space where I could receive, and like ask for help and support I've and like to be 33 days in, and I only just cooked the first meal. Wow, last night. You got some tribe over there. The meal trains happening, dude, the meal trains was, it was at the station every day. So, like, man. Like, that's like, I, I couldn't figure it out, because I need to go to the markets. I need to go buy food. I've got all this, I have, I have all this stuff to do, and then I had nothing to do because I had my community. And the other part, which I'd love to just quickly share with you, is that I run a, I run a large men's retreat called the gathering of men, and it's a, it's an annual retreat where we bring all the different communities together, and we had 200 men on the land just one month ago, and I organized that. And I'm this, I'm the, I'm the founder of this, this, this movement. And I didn't go because, oh, Sheen was born. The Meg's labor started as the opening ceremony began. How powerful. And he was born that evening, and I missed from from Friday to Monday, I was at home with my family, while the men that I trust and that I called in for my support, they ran it like seamlessly, and it was the best one we've done, and I wasn't there. And that for me was the this feels like a it was a solidification of my my receivership and my trusting in other men. Wow. So that was a huge and it's been such a beautiful thing to be connecting with these men now a couple of weeks later, and hearing their their stories from from the experience that they had, and to know. That this was not just, it's not just the Jacob O'Neill show or I'm not the savior or the guru. And that's what I loved about sacred sons, that there was no one face to the brand. It was a, it was a circle. It was a it was a brotherhood, it was a collective. And that's really what this year felt like. It felt like I stepped away from needing to be that the guy, and I let the circle really hold form, and I got to receive exactly what I needed, which was space to be with my family, which is, which was the kind of thing like, I didn't want to run for my responsibility at home, but I also want to have an impact in the world. I also want to have what, what greater responsibility Could there have been for you to show up? Like, how this is like, a a message for all of those brothers who you've gathered. It's like, hey, when I have you know this, this calling, this responsibility, like, this is how I show up. And I think, yeah, man, I've gone through the the same type of surrendering, leaning into trust, trusting men to run events. We have events around the world with men that we've trained and trained with. But sacred sun started with three of us, so we already started as a triad and into a circle. There's enough of those guys out there who are the guru or the dude, you know, enough of that. There's plenty of coaches you can go do that anywhere. And there is something that's incredibly powerful when a circle of men come together, when we acknowledge each other's gifts and and CO create, you know, from that place, I think that's there's something that really shifts from men that I see when we come together, not in competition, but in collaboration. It activates a new type of being within us. And, you know, I could just share. I wanted to say two things when my son Holland was born, the sacred sons brothers, as I had a meal train, they also made my one of our chefs put together a cookbook for me, which was just a crock pot cookbook. So it was like, different crock pot recipes, because I, you know, having the postpartum meals going. And so my brothers, they showed up. I'm not the greatest Cook. I'm eggs, bacon, pancakes, you know, the whole things, but at that time, it wasn't that great. And they brought me all these recipes, and I was like, fuck yeah, man. Like, let me, let me get my got my crock pot skills on. And I just love, I love the creativity that can come along with these things. But at our first, at our first sacred son's convergence, like I said, there was three of us who organized and co founded it, but it was, it was still an element of like, wow, we have close to 100 guys here. How are we going to pull all this together? And what I noticed immediately, as the men started showing up, how can I help? What do you need me to do? I got two good hands. Where can I put them? Where can I put myself to good use? And I was like, oh, oh, yeah. These are men. They want to contribute. They want to help. And and it's like the smile that you have in your face lets me know that you know this, like, the true nature of men is to be of service. This is something that doesn't get spoken enough about, because I think the focus is put on providership, you know, like, Oh, you gotta, you gotta do it. You gotta provide. Yes, and when we are, when we are able and put in situations to be of service to something that we believe in, it also, it's, it's also a part of the healing experience, you know what I mean? And so, yeah, it's another part of the reason I like working with men. There's, there's, there's little nuance there that I think people outside of this type of work may not even realize is there, man, my favorite, one of my favorite moments from last year's event that we had is, like, on day three, when you look over and there's, like, way too many people in the kitchen helping, like, everyone's chocolate parrots, like other guys are running water. These guys are doing this. Other guys, and I'm just looking over like, wow, they're like this. This energy is really an energy of service. Like, how can we come together and do this together? And I have a memory of of childhood. I remember we had a big family barbecue, and we had heaps of people there, and then it was the boys turned to do the cleaning. We had its cousins and sisters, and then I had brothers and cousins. And when the sometimes the boys would do the cleanup, sometimes the girls would do the cleanup. But anyway, I was the oldest, and we're doing the cleanup. There's only three of us boys there, my little brother Ryan, who just recently came to his first men's retreat, which was great. And then my cousin Wyatt and I remember, like, we had to, we, like we were, we were like, Oh, we've got to do the cleanup. But then we turned it into this whole extraction mission, and we created this whole imaginary world of like, All right, we've got to get these trays up to the safest. And we literally, like, we were literally, like, created a whole and it became this, like, amazing experience. And we still laugh, because, like, Man, that was such a fun time. And we were washing dishes, but we're doing it together, and we're being of service to the family. I just It brings tears to my eyes, because, like, that was, like, that was, that's such a strong memory. And we were, what, like, if you look at the task, what we were doing was washing up and cleaning, but it was the it was the feeling of service and the way that we created fun and play around it. And for me, that's the nuance of men's work. Is like when the when it, when it reaches that tipping point where everything becomes just magic and the synchronicity just flows. Yeah, I love that. And, you know, I'm raising boys. I have three sons, and my youngest, Winona, and yeah, with the boys, we make everything into a challenge. We make everything fun. And chores don't have to be like, Hey, you gotta do this before the fun starts. I like to be like, you know, who can pick up all the toys the fastest go if you, if you give, there is a bit of competition, I'll be real, but if you give a little bit of the encouragement of play along with the chores, all of a sudden, like, it doesn't matter what we're doing. We as men, you know why we have all these sports globally? Because we fucking make up games. We like to make up games. It's no secret, I think, even in indigenous culture, when the food is in abundance, when everything is tended to, men, tend to go and gamble or create games or create like these other worlds of competition. And so in raising boys, I'm kind of unlocking these codes of how to, how to do that in a good way with my own children, you know. And it oftentimes looks like a bit of like, hey, 100 points, if you can, you know, do this random thing, whether it's taking out the trash or picking up all the toys. This is, this is a pretty common thing every day, picking stuff up. I'm like, yeah, it's a lot of picking up, but you know, that's that's a special energy, and we're not trained in these relational ways as men. In my experience of education, it had to do a lot with memorization, with regurgitation of information, and not so much relationship and and I think there's a new level of education that's possible here. And it doesn't look like sitting down, eyes forward, being quiet. It looks like being in our bodies. It looks like challenging confrontation. It looks like wild celebration. And these are the parts of men's work that really light me up. You know, when we we can be in the wildness of our full expression as a human on this beautiful planet that we're on, and we can, we can be humble. We can be close to the ground. We can cry together, we can pray together, you know. And in my experience, there wasn't a lot of room for that. You know, I was raised Catholic. I went to Catholic school. They told me when the kneel, when to stand. You know, I got in loads of trouble because I was always talking or drawing on my desk or whatever I was doing. And there's more all that to say. There's more. And as a father, I'm I'm in deep in R and D, trying to feel it out, trying to really understand, how do we raise strong men out of these young boys? Right? Because this is another place where I see society, society, the education system, whatever that is, the previous generation has kind of failed us, or at least, at the very least, set us up for failure. You know the dream of the initiation being getting your driver's license, being able to drink this or that, smoke this or that, and that's, that's the initiation. Then you go to college, then you then you move on to a relationship, you get the job, you get the girl, whatever that's that is. I have seen that as a dead end pathway, and a lot of men are unfulfilled, chasing this manufactured reality, and my messaging in this way, is just to let brothers know that there is so much more to life, and there is so much more to you. Boom, we're back. All right, I just want to say it's, it's, it's ironic, but it's also the realist of the real. We're talking about the roles of the Father, and just as we're talking about it, you know, real life is happening for me, my son, Johan, got hit with a really harsh stomach bug. So. And simultaneously, as I, as I told you, my other son, Holland, crapped his pants at the same time, and his mom's like, Hey, I don't know what you got going on there, but I need you now. And this is, this is the role of the father, despite what's happening around us, despite the chaos that is swirling Can we, can we be centered, be the mountain, and can we prioritize our families? And I think I feel like for both of us, prioritizing our homes, our families, our beloveds, it has to be at the core of of this work, 100% man. And like you said, it was just quite it was just so beautiful that that was the thing that happened right in the middle of the podcast. It was like, Oh, we're talking about the sacred role of man and how we do the work for our families. And then it's literally in the middle of the podcast, you get called to embody that. And what I loved was like, for me, I was like, of course, there was no like, oh, Adam's running away from me. Or there's no Oh, this isn't important to him. And the beautiful thing, man, I just want to honor you, was that your communication immediately afterwards, okay, I want to pick this up and complete this. There wasn't like, just like, Oh, we're not going to get to do it. There was communication. And there was a level of like, hey, let's get this done, and I'm still going to show up and complete this, this interview, and that, for me, was such a beautiful experience. And it it's showing me, because yesterday I had one of those days where, oh, Sheen just didn't want to, you know, play to the schedule that I had for my day. I had a full day of work planned, and I did one thing. I had a list of 10, and he needed me, and my wife needed me, and I thought about you and you being called to honor, you know, your role. And it was like, Yes. I was like, This is what I'm here to do. But if I can't do this, then what is the actual value of the work that I'm that I'm bringing to the world in the men's work space, if I can't do it in my own home? Yes. And that brings to me the value of men's work, you know, it's structure and flow, and so, you know, I'm also just getting off a call with a few brothers and sacred sons. And life is really happening out here. We just went through a massive election season. This entire year has been so divisive in many, on many levels, but like in the political ideology, the the identity politics as it is, and circling up with a group of men, not only for the witness that we were speaking of, but to put our heads together like, maybe, maybe I'm fully resourced at the moment, and there's a brother who's who's not, and then maybe there's times where I'm like, dude, like, I'm in the unknown right now. I need support. That's really what men's work invites in. It's there's no gurus here. It's the circle. The circle is the teacher. You know, there's no perfect there's no perfect people. And if anybody's coming at you talking about perfection run. Yes. So, so funny. You say that because like, I am, like I said, I got called to be in the birth portal with my wife when I when the gathering of men, we call it, T Gong, was running, and I've got a bro, his name's Keegan, and shout out to Keegan, he I called him. I said, bro, I need you to step in for me. I need you to play, play the role that I normally play, and I'm the I'm the hot man, that's that's drumming, that's singing, that's just like bringing the bringing the energy. That's kind of the role that I play in the lead team. And he said, I've got you, bro. And he's like, can you just send me a voice note? Just send me a voice note, though, sort of encapsulating what the essence of this year is about, and I remember sending it to a bit. I hopped off, and I was like, I think all I all I kept saying, was the circle, the circle, the power of the circle, the ancient technology, this primordial technology of the circle, where the circle can hold everything that needs to be held. It can witness everything that needs to be witnessed. And the beautiful of the circles. It can expand and contract based on how many men are there, or if some man needs to step away, the circle can close in. It can the container, can literally navigate itself. And for me, that that idea of the circle is even to the point where I bring it into my personal life as well, is like, I've got my inner circle. And it's funny, you know, we were speaking last week, it's like the fridge is full again. Man, was talking about, like, the I had, I had one of the facilitators, my bro, Nick, came by yesterday and dropped off fresh fruit and a carton of eggs and a lasagna in the freezer and some ice cream for my wife. And, like, that's for me, that's the circle. Literally, intuitively guiding and supporting and resourcing the community. Yes, yes, it's got to be. And I get this all the time. How do I bring this work home? How do I, you know, how do I implement it into my life? And I believe that it's just in that. It's in the relationships, it's. In the actual bonds that we make with one another, and the way that we create those those strong bonds is through deeply intimate, you know, situations and you know, I think I said last time we were talking that I have been someone who has ran in the past, and very early on in sacred sons, it was literally the first time we had what's called an emX embodied masculine experience. I remember there was a brother facilitating a Russian guy, and, you know, I was watching this process unfold, and the facilitator called me in to be a supporter of this man, and somehow I ended up holding his feet to the ground, and I'm holding his feet looking at these sweaty, stinky feet. Tears are dropping. Beautiful movement is happening. Energetic shifts are happening. You know, healing is happening. But in my mind, I was just going, like, if I can do this for this brother, for this stranger, can I bring this home? Can I stand when it gets hard, when the tantrum is here, when the meltdown is here, when the uncertainty of life creeps in? Because, as we know in this work, like there's nowhere to arrive where we're like, sorted all figured out. I got this master, mastery of life. And in fact, it's actually the moments when you think you have it together the most that the other shoe drops or that things go awry. And that moment is so vivid for me because it taught me that I can stand in the storm like I can just be with it, and those experiences we have to train for it. No one is teaching us as men how to how to stand in, how to stay in the game, how to stay in when it's when it's especially when it's hard. And so we train, and we do that over and over again, to the point where, with something such as primal recalibration. You can have someone actually screaming in your face, and you can just stand in and hold it. And you know, in my home, there's, there's two powerful questions, is there more? And how can I support you men mastering these two questions, and my for myself to master these, these, these moments like even, like I'm saying, during the the times that would typically, you know, shake us to the core where we're like, Fuck, I just want to be out of here. Is there more? Is there more? Because I have more capacity now. And how do I have more capacity because of the circle of men that not only has held me in the depth of my uncertainty, but has also held me accountable to standard and to my word, yeah, that that what I take from that and how, like, I'm sort of just understanding my own journey a little more. Is like, yeah, it has almost felt like the last eight years of my journeys from that first ceremony through to my then deepening into men's work six years ago, and then slowly finding my way to this point of deep facilitation is it's really been a matter of how much can I become like the hollow bone Yes, and clear out my my nervous system, of all the things that stop me from serving but how do I expand that nervous system capacity? How do I become resilient, but not rigid, and be able to ask, like, that's a beautiful question. Is there more and for us? You know my wife, it's like, how can I love you better? Like, hey, how could, how could I love you better? And rather than trying to say, what do you need, it's like, how can I love you better? And that's, um, and, you know, being in that birth portal, and my wife and I just started doing our podcast series on that, I'm really understanding the process work in a men's work space, how that calibrates a man's nervous system to weather the storm, even if you're not the person that's leading it, just by witnessing it and holding the frame, whether it's the feet or a hand or back on one of the, you know, hand on the back of the heart of another man as he holds that that that kind of the structural intelligence of a process like that. It gives you an experience of, I can I can be with this? Yes, those are the words, like, can you be with this? That's, that's it, man. And it's not, I want to say, like, we make agreements. So there are agreements in men's work, but then there's, there's rules. And one of the rules of men's work is, don't facilitate men's work on women or on your woman. And that's not what we're saying, right? Yes, yes. Not to facilitate. It's actually to grow our capacity. And some guys, even myself may have gotten that twisted like, Oh, I'm here to learn how to do this magic everywhere I walk. And it's not. The, you know, it's not about necessarily the doing. It's in that capacity to be with. I think you nailed it. Yeah, man, rather than just trying to paint every situation with the same brush, like, Okay, I've done a men's work process. Now I'm gonna do that on my dad when I go home for Christmas. I'm going to do that. I'm going to do that my friend, when he doesn't show up at the waves at the right time and he's five minutes late, I'm going to call an accountability Yeah Or Yeah. What I've learned too, is like, yes, there are, there are some actual structured processes that are great in like an initiatory experience or rites of passage experience. But what actually has helped me is learning how to ask good questions, being really attuned to my own curiosity. So that example you gave you know a man with his father, it's not to go facilitate your dad. That's never going to work, by the way. But can you ask good questions? And for me, when I was going through a separation with my son, Noah's mom, I remember that was the moment where I really was like, fuck, what was my dad going through? You know? Like, I never asked a question. I had always, I'd always been with my mom's story of what happened, you know what? I mean, that was the side of the story that I heard, and I got really curious and and instead of, instead of holding my curiosity to myself, I started asking those questions, Dad, what was going on for you? You know, when I was one, when you guys are separating, not in with absolutely no judgment from a from a place like, Hey, man, I'm going through it. I am you. You made me What were you going through? You know? Because I need to know. And that's, that's the kind of thing that this men's work unlocks. I feel like a lot of us, we, we, we don't only suppress our emotions. Which is, which is broadly understood in terms of the men's mental health stuff, yeah, like everybody's stuffing it down, stuffing it down, but we also stuff down our own curiosity. And becoming curious, once again, is such an accelerator to our own personal growth. Yes, yes, yes. I found too that I had, early on I'd kind of put my dad fucked me up, he's the bad guy. So the curiosity wasn't there. And through the process of doing some emotional work where I got to see a little clearly, more clear, clearly, and that curiosity came online, I then was able to actually see the gold, or ask questions like be curious, and learn that there was gold in my lineage, that it wasn't just this bad thing that I kind of break the chain, cut them off, and it became this whole New so for me, like the concept of inner child work or this healing the lineage became not necessarily about me doing all the work and becoming the perfect person in the line of the generations. More so it's like, how do I actually have compassion and want to understand and connect deeper through receiving wisdom and unlocking that through my questioning. And yeah, we would. I've been super grateful. The last two years, my dad has come, and He crews in the kitchen, and he brings all of the stuff for our men's retreat. So he comes, and he's a part of it, and he in him being there, I'm starting to see even more of the qualities, and I'm getting to learn more about him, and the Curiosity has just led to a deeper and deeper connection and a deeper and deeper understanding of, like, all of the value that he's given me as well, which has been beautiful, because before, it was just like, not he's he wasn't there for me, for this, this, this and this. So I've got to heal and do all the work myself, so I don't do that with my children. And now I'm starting to see that that's, that's folly, man like that. One's perfect, absolutely. And there's, you know, there's, there's always multiple sides to any situation or story. And it's important to be curious about perspectives and also to be courageous enough to to ask the question in the first place. You know, so many things go unspoken because, because we may, at times, lack courage. So another thing that this work does is it, it expands our ability to, like, make the courageous choice. You know, I used to say, like, whenever you have a choice, just do the coolest thing, right? Just do whatever is the coolest that's that's where I come from. But now I'm like, do the most courageous thing, like when you have a choice in your life, really, at your doorstep, you know, on your plate, do the thing that requires the most courage and see what happens that's. Like a good place to operate from in my experience. And what you bring up for me, too is that this work of sacred sons, I've been cultivating, creating events, traditions. And you know, we're we just completed our convergence nine and so 2025, we will have convergence. 10. This is, for me, this is a big milestone. And for the Brotherhood, it's a big milestone, and what it has informed me of is to create traditions in my own family. It's not to bring my family to sacred sons, right? It is beautiful that your dad's in the kitchen. Don't get me wrong, that's that's quite beautiful, and it's in the in between, like, what are the traditions I'm creating in my home? What are the annual gatherings of myself, my brother, his children, my mother and father, and we've been cultivating that. Like, that's a learned experience, because so many of us, myself included, especially in in America, you know, we've been cut off from the root of our ancestry. It's, it's real. You know, this is an immigrant culture here this, and they call that. You call it a an orphan culture. You can call it a cultureless culture. And so men's work in masculine alchemy has really informed me to create the traditions in my home. And that's like, that's, that's more fulfilling than putting on an event. I can just, I can say, like, what I've done with my brother every year. And this, this came because I was constantly telling my brother, you got to come to sweat lodge. Got to come to sweat lodge, bro, I got too much going on. I you know, he's got, my brother's got five children, you know, you got to come to convergence. I made this thing, you will love it, and eventually he's just like Adam, like, what if we just get our families together, you know, like, what if we just do our own convergence, if you will, right? And that's, that's what, that's where the real gold has been as a result of this work, not necessarily to to bring my family to the work, but to bring the work to my family. Man, yeah, that's just like, made me reflect on, like, the traditions that we had in my family as a young a young child, we had a camping trip every Easter, and that was a tradition where we all went to the same river, the same place on the river, the nemoy River, from where I'm where I'm from, and we would all camp for four days. Now, our cousins would come down from Brisbane, like an eight hour drive. We'd have other friends. And over the course of like, 10 years, we developed this campsite, and we built tables and we set everything up. We had those beautiful, beautiful thing. And that property got sold. And anyway, my dad made this beautiful, big, hard, hardwood table out there that was like the big long table that we'd eat at. Yeah, big long picnic table. And when that property got sold, he went out and he got that that table, and he he cut it up and he made chopping boards for all of the children that were part of the camping that that tradition was like a closing of that tradition. And you've just really seeded this idea of, like, Okay, what tradition can I bring to my family? And start with my my son, he's only just here. How can I bring a tradition in that starts in the first year of his life, and start to build on that and use it as a way, like, hey, let's, let's create something here that becomes a family tradition, that kind of anchors us and brings us back together every year. That sounds Yeah, I'm really loving the idea, right? It's so important to have those anchors. You know what I mean? One of the things I do is every New Year's Day, the first of the year, we drive out to the desert. I'm here in San Diego, so it's an hour drive to on to Borrego Desert. It's beautiful landscape, but it's barren. It's cold, you know, it's it's lacking in the ways of life, although there's lizards and things that my boys like. But to have that, to know that on the first day of the year we're going to go out to the desert, we're going to be out there in the land, we're going to light a fire, where it's going to be together, away from all the noise, away from all the technology, and always starting the year off with this. It's because of the place that we're in. But like, culture is rooted in place, right? And it's, it's important to acknowledge the lands that we're on, not just in the ways of of the you know, this is a Kumi, a territory, but like, have, have I actually broken bread with those people? Have I actually went and put my own prayers on the land? Because that's what matters. You know, it's not in the words, it's in the action, the learning is in the participation, like getting in the game, not just talking about the game. Men have done so much of that shit, especially in, you know, sports and like, we give all of our energy to these iconic superstars, as if we're, as if, as if we're less than So I'm encouraging brothers, get in the game of your. Life. Treat you a fan like be famous amongst your friends and family. Treat your family as if they are the superstars and as if they are the ones who deserve your best and deserve your you know, I don't know if you like rugby or soccer or whatever you're into, but like or maybe nothing but like. Can we champion our our own children in the ways that we do these people that are not even, you know, connected to us, there's a shift that I have made in that way in my life that's and it's significant. Doesn't mean you can't watch sports. I love the UFC. I'm about to watch Mike Tyson, J Colin this weekend. I love him. And yes, can I have Can I can I keep that same energy when it's me and my boys and I put the boxing gloves on them, you know what? I mean, can I, can I, can I be in it with just as much passion? Yeah, man, yes. I have this sort of thing that I say to me. I was like, like, Why do we always have to tell stories about Gods and great men when we're right here? Why didn't Why don't we create that and become that? And I have a lot of young, boys are friends with young boys in that sort of seven, seven to 10 range, and they, like you have the capacity to like, be a, be a mentor for these young men in your life. And that for me, like I, I wear, I wear this sort of a cowboy hat, and I bought a brand new one because I was like, I want a new cowboy hat, and I want to keep it, because I've got a good one, and then I've got my, like, my work one. And anyway, this young, young, young boy, he's named Sue me. He's a son of some of our close friends. He He came in and he put it on, he put my cowboy hat on, and he was just walking around with it, and I just, and he's like, Can I have this? And I was like, the part of me was one to hold on to it, because I wanted to, I wanted to spare just in case. I was like, Nah, man, you can have it. You can have this hat. And, like, he hasn't, you know, his mom's ring, um, told me, like he hasn't taken it off. And I think we have the capacity to to be, to be real, like not, not to be champions, or to be the, the famous celebrity, but we have the ability to influence and be that pillar of of of what's possible, and play that role and have men rather than be told, tell rather than tell you a story or watch it on the TV like come out into the yard and let's experience life together. Let's light the fire, let's climb the tree, let's put the gloves on, let's run the race, let's swim across the creek. And I think we spoke a little bit about that idea of play before in it. And I think that, like, what I'm hearing is like, yeah, it's all well and good to cheer on the big sports stars, but if we can't, like, go out and have our own adventures and have our own experiences, we're just sitting in the in the bleachers, we're just sitting on the sideline. And that for me, like I always say, you know, see you in the arena, because that's where I do my best work. Yeah, the Man in the Arena, that's just it. And I feel like, maybe those great men in the past, you know, there was no Doom scrolling for them. There was no opportunity not to be the man in the arena. And we have lost aspects of that because of the technological culture, the industrialized system that we were literally born into. And we get to acknowledge it, but we don't have to accept that as our fate, right? It's like, if we know better, let's let's do something about it, and and it's about small wins. I want to just reiterate right here, because we, I can get a little big with it, but it's like, man, it's in the mundane. The magic is in the mundane. It's in the the everyday situations, like where Johan, he had that fucking stomach ache, man, and we were for a minute Hannah's like, you need to take him to the ER, you know, like, I don't know what this is, and I'm like, not so much for that, but, but I'm like, let me just sit with them. Let me have them drink some water. Let me rub his belly, let me sing him a song. You know, can I just do what I do and see if we can get through this? And it did. It passed, you know, he was able to to move through the pain, just with just with my presence and in US rallying around him like everything doesn't have to be medicalized and industrialized here sat in any type of ceremony, like our bodies are so intelligent, even when It's hard, even when sickness comes, like maybe that fever is burning off something that needs to be burnt off. And so what is our capacity as parents, as guardians, to once again, be with it, not to outsource because a doctor, you know what's funny, and even Johan was like, Daddy, should we go the doctor? And I'm like, I'm like, I'm, I'm Doctor daddy. Now, like, like, come on. Like, I got tools too. I got a I got a whole medicine cabinet too. Like, yes, and don't get me wrong, I'm for doctors. They provide all kinds of incredible things, especially in the form of. Like traumatic injuries and things like that. And we're we are much more equipped than we give ourselves credit for. Actually, we're more equipped than the what's called the system gives us credit for. Once we're embodied, once we take ownership. Man, that and like that just comes back to, can I be with this? Is like, Am I willing to be responsible and take responsibility and ownership and be like, cool, I I don't need to run and give that my responsibility away to us, to someone who's got a pill or or a medicine that that's going to take this away from the person myself or my family member. Because, once again, that, like you said, that fever might be burning something off this stomach ache might be, you know, deepening something here, like it's and it's not to say that, like you said, and I totally agree that the medical system is there for very specific set of reasons. For me, personally, I don't engage with it otherwise, unless it's something a massive emergency, but in those moments, very diplomatic, very diplomatic, but I'm the same. I'm like, Oh, this is my responsibility. And I've had like, different types of injuries and different types of sicknesses where I'm like, this is actually, even when I got COVID, it was almost like I was like, this is kind of like a collective purge. And like all of our friends, got it at the same time, and we I was like, literally just in bed, just almost hallucinating and sweating. I was like, this is, this is this is asking me to slow down. It's asking me to stop. This has asked me to be with it. And I think that that's something that, through my ceremony journeys, has taught me that don't run from this. Don't outsource your power. Don't rush off and give your control away to someone who's just going to make life more comfortable. Be with the discomfort. Be with the part of you that isn't too sure what to do and trust and ask for support. Call on your like, pick up your heart. History tools, Jacob, trust, and that's been a huge and I feel that's going to be a huge lesson for me as as ocean continues to grow, and I get to put all of those things into practice in a much deeper way. Yeah, and on the other side, when, when reservoirs are full, when resources are plenty, can we be that friend that shows up with the chicken soup that shows up with, you know, the whatever it is that that that wants to be provided. And we were, we were kind of talking about this just a moment ago, but there's a sense of men as provider. But really, prosperity comes in more forms than just money, right? It's just, it's a reality I work with. So I've, I have worked with so many men who have come into the pitfall, have given their children everything they wanted in the form of, you know, toys and memes and money, but lacked actual presence. And so the prosperity can't truly be there unless the presence of the Father is is home, you know, and not and not 24/7 like we were on missions here, you know, I mean, and in this case, you and I, it seems like we have a shared mission, shared vision, shared values, that we're working towards and deepening collectively. But the prosperity is going to come from our presence as well as the ability to put food on the table. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, man, the dinner table is kind of the altar of the of the home. That's the way I see. It's like, yeah, you can put food on the table, but if you're not there to share, share it with your family. Can there's something missing, which is, like, really, really important for me. That's something that I'm I listened to one of the podcasts with Vince matoska, yeah, one of the live ones. And I think he, he read a poem about how, like, men have to go away, they have to go on adventure, have to go and do their work, but they also have to know when to come home. And I think that's the wrestle, like, I work with a lot of guys that think they have to always be like, it's about the quantity of their their time with their family, rather than the quality. And for me, it's like, you need to be when you're with your family, be be with your family. But when the when the vision and the adventure calls, be with that and know how to navigate and hold the tension of the two, the paradox, which is, I'm a man on a mission, and I'm a man here to be deeply present and steward in this, this next generation, and be with my woman, and be with the garden and make sure that the dishes are washed. And that's just as important as taking this man through the process and changing his life. And those nappies need to be changed, man, dude, we got to get our hands dirty building bridges to the new earth, even when we change the diapers. You call them nappies? Yeah, we call them nappies. And I have failed at this many, many times. One time I went to an event and I didn't have my car. Here in the States, we have car registry. Shouldn't like your license plates. And Hannah, like, halfway through this event, I'm out on some island in British Columbia, leading men, and she's getting pulled over because I didn't fucking take care of the tags. It's like, what the fuck you know? And I like process that process that in front of the men, like, Hey, I know you guys. Like, I'm, I'm leading this thing here. I'm, I'm co creating this thing here, but I'm also fucking up, and we get the opportunity to own that shit. You know what I'm saying? Like, I just want to bring some humility to it, like I'm gearing up for a prime leadership this weekend. It's here in San Diego. We have 30 men coming from all around the world to train, and yeah, I'm out here today and tomorrow, making sure everything is sorted, so that while I'm gone, my presence is still felt in the preparation. There's a difference between, like, readiness, which is subjective, and the preparation that it actually takes to do something like go off on, on these adventures, on these rites of passage weekends and so like that, that that idea of preparation is is so important, yeah. And that, for me, is kind of one of the things of like, when, when I look at masculine energy, is like a consciousness feel, it's like, cool. I'm conscious of what my home needs whilst I'm away. I'm actually holding that field. I'm being or I'm having that level of awareness, rather than being like, I'm going to this retreat. I'm just going to completely remove myself. It's okay. I've tended to this place that is, that I will return to, which is, um, which is, you know, as as men, if any men are listening to that have that drive or that vision to go out and serve in whatever industry you're in, it's like, remember that that industry is there, and you will come home to to a home, and that home will, you know, most likely have, you know, all the things that you care about. And that's the thing that, um, that I'm conscious, like, very conscious, of these days with this, this young man in my house, this little baby, it's like, yeah, go do the work. But remember that you when the work is done you this, there's, there's a home that you return to, and what does that home need from you? So you're not constantly in this pendulum swing of trying to look after the home, trying to manage the the big the big vision, and, um, that's going to be a like you said, the humility is going to it's going to be a humble a humbling path, I'm sure, yeah, any good woman will, will humble us right off of any pedestal we we get placed upon. You know what I mean? Like, I get humbled all the time, and I, I choose to be good with it. I choose to learn, versus to to resist and and I'm, I'm constantly learning. I'm constantly checking in with my curiosity. And it's cool that we can talk about this, because, you know, we have a shared experience here too, that we understand. But broadly for men, I just want to, I want to say there's so many men that don't have close friendships, and sometimes even if you, if you have, like, good friends, it's like, Man, how deep do you really go? How well do you actually even know them? Or or what's, what's alive for them? And so if you, if you have someone who doesn't have that as a resource, like a circle of men, come out to these events. You know, step into a convergence, step into a gathering of men. Sacred sons, has a couple of immersions come into Australia, join those circles. There are really incredible fathers, leaders, facilitators. You know, everybody's a breath work practitioner these days, but this is so much more than that, and especially if you think that you've done a lot of work, because, man, that's what I hear. I've done so much work. Great. You're in the right place, because there's more work to do. This circle has no beginning or end, man. Man, hey, thank you so much. This has been like, you know, I've followed you guys for pretty much from the start of my journey, and I really appreciate you giving your time and energy to this conversation, man, and it feels really beautiful to connect with you. I've got a brother, Benny. He's gonna he's on. He's in America now. He's heading to prime leadership. I came to emX earlier this year, had an incredible experience, and it only deepened my desire to continue to do the work that I do, and support the work that all of these different facilitators and these different movements are doing so man, like for me, this is like we're all doing the work alongside each other, and we're all going to rise together. So thank you so much. We've got two, two events happening for Sacred sons. There's one in WA what dates are those ones again? Yes, I want to shout out our brother, Ryan Rowlands will be leading immersion in Perth, Australia, November 30 through December 1. And then also we will be in Byron Bay, New South Wales. Yes, yes, in December, 7 and eighth. And these immersions are designed so you don't have to go camping in the wilderness. For four days. It's not as much of a time investment. You can sleep in the comfort of your own house, but come out for the day, do some deep work within those two days. It's enough time truly, with the modalities, with the practices we have, and with these men who have been training in this work for years, it's enough time to really get, you know, an immersive experience. That's why we call it the the immersion. And, you know, some guys have a there's a barrier of entry, if, if you're going out into the wilderness for a true rites of passage, however, coming out for an immersion, it's like, it's, it's less of a risk, man. So if you're listening to this. If you've gotten this far, please consider this your invitation to join sacred sons immersion. Join a gathering of men. You know, I like to also just acknowledge there are no teams in men's work. There is one team, and that is the evolution of masculine consciousness on this planet. Get in the game. I Good man. Thank you so much, guys. I'll put all the links down below in the show notes, once again, brother, thank you so much. Big Love to you and your fam guys. We'll see you next week. Yo, yo, yo. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of sex, love and everything in between. Now, if you'd like to stay connected with Meg and I, you can head on over to Instagram and follow me at the Jacob O'Neal and where can people find you lover, at the dot. Meg, dot. O amazing. And yeah, guys, check out the show notes for all other information in regards to what we've got coming up. And yeah, we're super, super grateful that you guys for taking the time to listen in to this podcast. If you do have any topics or any questions like I said, hit us up on Instagram, and we'll see what we can do. Apart from that, have a beautiful, beautiful rest of your day. Thanks for being here. Big, big love you.