Ep 94: The healing power of Yoni Massage with Kiki Maree

In this week’s episode of Sex, Love & Everything in Between, Meg O’Neill sits down with Kiki Maree, a master of Yoni massage and Tantric healing. Together, they explore how these sacred practices can help you reconnect with your body, release hidden pain, and rediscover your own pleasure.

Kiki shares her deep knowledge of Yoni massage—not just as a form of touch, but as a healing practice that allows women to let go of trauma stored in the pelvis. Whether it’s past emotional wounds or the physical aftermath of childbirth, Yoni massage creates space for healing and empowerment in a way that feels natural and intuitive.

Meg and Kiki also dig into the power of Tantric massage. This isn’t about sex—it’s about using sexual energy to balance your emotions, open yourself up, and connect more deeply with yourself and others.

🔥 They also riff off on:

•Yoni Healing: What it means to heal from the inside out and take control of your pelvic health.

•Tantric Rituals: Using sexual energy for emotional and spiritual balance.

•Pelvic Wellness: Why tuning into your pelvic health is key to experiencing deeper pleasure and connection.

•Meg’s Personal Journey: How Yoni massage helped her prepare for childbirth, both physically and emotionally.

•Self-Empowerment: Simple ways to reclaim your body and deepen your relationships.

and many more...

🔥 Love this episode? 
Don’t forget to subscribe and share your thoughts in a review. We love hearing from our listeners!

🔥 Let’s stay connected:

•Follow Meg: @the.meg.o

•Follow Jacob: @thejacoboneill

🔥 Connect with Kiki:
Instagram: @yonilicious @kiki.maree |
Website: https://www.yonilicious.com.au/

🔥 Want more?

•Heed the call and join The Gathering of Men: https://www.theembodiedmaninstitute.com/tgom-2024 

•Explore our relationship resources: www.meg-oneill.com/relationship-freebie

Jacob & Meg also coach individuals and couples—slide into their DMs for more info!

Transcript

Unknown: 1:07

Just because I have a hole doesn't mean I want something inside. It doesn't mean that you have entitlement to it. You know, you may as well, just like, grab a flesh light if that's what you want, or see what that feels like for you. Having a hole you have a butt hole. How would you feel if every single time we made out, or every single time there's any kind of intimacy, there's expectation that I'm going to put something quite large inside of it when you're not ready, when you're not feeling it. Yo, yo, yo. Lovers, welcome, welcome, welcome to sex, love and everything in between. We're the O'Neills. You're here with Meg and Jacob, and this is the place we have really uncensored conversations about sex, intimacy and relationships. We're super excited you're here. Enjoy this episode. Hi, beautiful humans. Welcome back to sex, love and everything in between. I am super duper pregnant, but I'm glad we are here. We're sneaking this interview in before I give birth. I have the beautiful Kiki Marie with us today. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me days before, but I'm glad this worked out, because we were going to do it a few days ago, and then you had something on. And I'm like, well, if I'm still pregnant, you just text me this morning. I'm like, Well, I'm still pregnant, so come over. Let's go. I Well, I only really met you in person a few weeks ago through our friend Eleanor. Many of our podcast listeners would know Eleanor. She has some of our most loved episodes. She's been on here teaching us about blow jobs. And so I met you through Eleanor a few weeks ago at the markets, but I've seen your work around I think you've kind of been in my field for the last few years. And I think I started following you through Eleanor maybe six months ago. And what I love I just You are so like your expression online is just so creative and beautiful and so felt and I love what you bring. I think there's such a spectrum of sexuality work online and you from what I receive from your work, it's very fun, and it's still very like deep and I can tell you, create such a safe space for the people in your work, but there's such a like, an expression to it and a joy to it, and a fun to it, which I love. Thank you. That's so nice to hear. Which is so you two like meeting you in person as well. I can just you're like, very effervescent and very bubbly. And definitely, yeah, yeah. 100% I feel like one of the things that can come with this work is kind of the idea that we have to learn and grow through like, pain and struggle and, like, dive into the trauma. And while all of that is, like, really relevant, we can also learn through pleasure and play and fun and connection. And it doesn't always have to be super heavy. Yes, it's so interesting when I did because I did my sex coaching certification through Leila Martin, and at that time, there were a few other people in, you know, in the online world that I was like feeling into doing their work. And one of the reasons why I chose Layla is because she was so fun, and she is so fun and joyful. And I think sometimes, like, I'm so here for, like, the shadow work and the depth, and like to go into the darkness. But sometimes, I think there's particular teachers that are like, let's go there, and let's stay there. It's like, 100 No, let's go there, so then we can liberate more joy and more pleasure and more ecstasy and more of the like, freedom, yeah? And I think that's almost my my like compass for when I'm looking for a teacher as well. It's like, how much joy can I see you hold in your body? How much joy can I see you like being able to express in your life, as well as all the other things as well? Yeah? Yeah. Me too. Same way I would love to hear how, and I love, I feel like I'm going to be getting to know you through this experience as well. But I would love to hear, tell us a bit about the work you do in the world. I know you run, would you call it a school? Yeah. I know you run a school. I know you do a teacher Yoni massage and then a sex coaching certification as well. So tell us a little bit about your work in the world, and then I want to ask a bunch of other questions, and know how you got into all of this as well. Yeah. Sweet. So right now, I guess where most of my energy and attention and excitement lies is with my students, because what's happening is, you know, I'm teaching them the things I learned over my I don't know, decade plus 15 years of study, and that's kind of reaching so much further than where I can reach. So it's really exciting that I can put in energy and attention to my students and my graduates as well, like I. Still in touch with all of those. And then they're going out, and they're like, you know, have people in the States, I have people in Europe, I have people in South America, touching the lives of other people with this work, you know, doing menstrual parties and doing Yoni massages in place where places where, you know, 1000s of kilometers around them, there's nobody else doing that kind of work. So that really excites me and lights me up. So yeah, I have the sexological body work sort of component of my school, which is focusing around pelvic health, pelvic awareness, pelvic massage and mapping. And then I have the coaching sort of aspect of my school, which is, yeah, supporting people on their journey in their sexuality, wherever they're at. Okay, I would love to hear more about the sex sexological body work part, which is the Yoni mapping and everything. Tell me about how you first got into that. Did you have your first experience with receiving that? Or tell us more about that, and then I'd love to hear about how, how you teach that, and how that can support Yeah. So I the first, very first experience I had with you on your massage was with a lover, and it was a more, I guess, tantric approach than what I teach and what I share now and what I later learned, but it was still very The goal was just like to be with my body and to be with what was present in my body, and to not force anything, to not have any expectations. It was just being with my body. And that was the first time I had ever been touched by a lover in that way where I didn't feel like I had to orgasm, or I had to feel aroused, or I had to do anything but just be present with my body. And that stayed with me, and that was a really beautiful experience. And then I started, yeah, I decided I don't know exactly where, where on my journey, I started looking into many different aspects of sexuality, going into the teachings of Corona and going into sacred sexuality, and then getting into kink. But somewhere in all of that, and then also academically, somewhere in that, I found more practitioners that offered a more therapeutic approach to Yoni massage that wasn't the tantric it was just to heal, just to connect, just to get into my body and in those in one session in particular, in that sort of part of my journey, I had, yeah, one moment where I was writhing on the massage table in so much pain in my G spot area, like, kind of almost screaming and just like, whoa. Like, Okay, hello, pain like this. You know, this isn't something that I even knew was in my body. It wasn't like, it was like a really strong, firm massage. It was just kind of like a normal massage. And yeah, after that experience, I was able to access pleasure in my G zone. And I had never felt pleasure there before. I'd always been like, what like, what is this G spot? You know, orgasm about, I don't feel anything like, either it's pain or I need to pee. And then afterwards, I was like, whoa, what? Like, what is this? This is incredible. So I started seeking out different teachers, learning, sort of many different modalities to do with Yoni massage, because everybody sort of does their their work differently. And, yeah, I kind of brought all of those different teachings into my own modality, I suppose, where I kind of I wanted to go, sort of go ahead with what I felt was like the best of what, with what what I had learned. And it's kind of just evolved and grown since then. And that was, that was like eight years ago. Wow, yeah, wow, yeah. And is, I have so many questions from that one, just from your experience, like on the table and experiencing that, like writhing and pain, you said, when in in your G spot after that experience. Is that something that you were consciously aware of, like what, what your pussy, or what your G spot was holding on to in that moment, or what that was or in your work? Is it more just like just feeling it in the moment, or like being with the sensation and not necessarily having to be in the story of it. I love that question, because it's, it's all of it. And it can be, boom, like I'm pinpointing where this is coming from right now, and I'm sort of speaking to all of the experiences that I've had and shared with other clients since. Or it could just be like, this is if. Physical thing that just needs to be released because there might have been an injury, or some someone might have rolled the ankle, so they've been favoring one hip, favoring that ankle, therefore an imbalance in the pelvis, and that's sort of referred into the pelvic diaphragm, or it could be there's been a holding of the nervous system, a tensing within the pelvic diaphragm. Because we said when we're in fight or flight, or when we're in sort of flight mode, we tuck the pelvis under ready to run. And so when that happens, all of the pelvis is responding, and the pelvic diaphragm is getting tense and tight, and yet we're sort of chronically in that sympathetic state in our fast paced culture. So it could just be a holding pattern of an overall dysregulation in the body, or it could be this is connected to, in this moment, to a specific point in time, an experience that we had. For me, it felt ancestral. It felt like my I was storing and holding tension from abuse that's happened in my family and it wasn't my own. So that's, that's what that particular moment was for me, the really painful experience. And yeah, and sometimes it's something that can be like, feel really, I'm like, not connected to our sexuality, it might just be a feeling of betrayal of self or a betrayal of a friend, or something that would just held in this this area, you know, as we kind of know, the hips store a lot of our emotions, and we really feel that when we do connect in with our body, when we're doing things like yoga and breathing and stretching and being present, it can bring a lot of things up. And yeah, if we haven't dealt with things, they tend to get stuck in the body. And I love that you said, like after that experience and meeting that like on on the massage table, you were then able to access deeper levels of pleasure, like I am. That's just such a huge part of the way I teach and the way I live as well, and my own experience with my pleasure. You know, I was having good sex and good orgasms before I kind of went on this path. But it was really interesting to me in my own journey with like self pleasure and even, like, you know, own, my own Yoni massage, like self, self experience, like beginning to unlock things that I didn't even know were there in my pussy. And you know, whether it would be traumatic experiences that I wasn't even aware I was holding, like you said, some ancestral pieces, just certain feelings and really learning sometimes that's still, I think, and I think this is like such a necessary ingredient if we want to experience more pleasure. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. But like even the other day, this happened in my love making with my husband, like I felt like this disgust when he was touching my pussy and there was, there was part of me that wanted to pull away. And instead of trying to, like, bypass that and be like, Oh, or instead of even like, just Yeah, stopping the entire experience, it was like, Oh, can I? Can I create safety? And also, can I breathe with this? Like, this is the doorway to deeper levels of pleasure. This is like asking this is coming up, to be met and to be breathed with and to be worked with. And I think that's just so important. I think in a lot of pleasure spaces, and I work with a lot of women, and women come into these spaces thinking, I'm just going to experience more pleasure, but it's actually sometimes. It's like deep contraction or your disgust or your shame, or these different pieces that are that have been stored in your pussy, in your body, that it's necessary to meet in order to liberate more of the pleasure and the ecstasy and the deeper orgasms and all the things, yeah, acknowledgement, yeah, I think is that that is like The thing that can bring what's lying beneath the shadows, what's been dismissed and unheard and unseen, and therefore, just like festering almost and, yeah, unable to be transmuted, because we just don't acknowledge what what is there. And if we can do it in the moment, like when it comes up, then it's so much easier. Oh, I'm feeling that disgust now, okay, let's sit with that. What is it? And how can we move forward? I think sometimes we can run away because it can be scary, or we have these expectations of, like, oh, I should be loving this right now. Like, my this is my husband. Like, I should be like, especially for us, I feel like in this field, we can put this pressure on ourselves, of like we should be better. Like, I know when I work with my with my students, if there's something that comes up for them, they can really, like, you have put so much more pressure on themselves because we're in this field. But what I try and teach them. And also remind myself is that these things will like, sexuality is so fluid, it's cyclic. It's never this like peak that we we reach. It's it's this beautiful journey with where we are at in our body allows us to see what that is, to see what we need. It shows us what we need in these moments of contraction, in these moments of confusion, and like, oh, okay, I guess I'm feeling this way now, what does that mean? Yeah, yeah. And our ability to just be with that instead of pushing past it, and, yeah, pushing part, I think the pushing past it is what creates a lot of the unconscious kind of holding and tensing, because we're almost, like, creating an aversion to it's like, I kind of, the way that I look at is, like, if you eat something that's bad, or like, off, and Then you vomit, you throw up from it, and then you don't want to eat it again, even when it's not rotten. Like, I'm thinking of rock melon for me, because I ate that when I was young. I vomited it, and then later was like, I can't eat rock melon anymore, yeah. Like, the same thing is like you are if some if your body is telling you you don't want something, you push through it. You just do it anyways. It's like, we create this aversion to it. It's like, this is bad for us, and we don't want to do it instead of finding out what is the healthy expression of it. And then we don't have that, that same sort of resistance, and yeah, the disgust, or the like, the aversion that you know, our body's trying to tell us we don't want something, or we need to change something, listening to it will, will therefore bring us what, what it is that we we desire. Yes, I have so many pieces where I want to go now, but I'm gonna, like, try and remember a piece here. But I want to go back to when you're when you're so I would love to just, you just share more on, like, your way of doing your massage, and what that looks like, especially for people listening being like, I don't, I don't even know what that is, or what what to expect if I was to go in and experience this, yeah, and I love that you said it's, it's very much more from like, a therapeutic perspective. And what I think of is, like, it's so normalized to go and get, you know, a back massaged, or a body massaged. And you know, this part of our body that is so potent and powerful, and, you know, we sometimes expect a lot from, like, orgasms and pleasure and all these things that yeah, we're not actually allowing that to be Yeah, whether it's released tension or just to Yeah, to have this, like, beautiful hands on experience, yeah, that's, I really love the way that you put that. There's this, like, expectation from it, and then also, like, kind of, like, like, it's ignored in that, like, yeah, just like, whack a tampon in, like, you know, and I don't know, like, in my youth, I was definitely, like, just shoving tampons in and and just like ripping them out and, like, Oh, that feels beyond comfortable. Oh, well. Like, get on with it, you know. Like, yeah, there's so much going on in this part of our body, and it's actually an incredibly complex muscular system where there is so much connected from even our pelvic diaphragm, like on the inside of the pelvic bowl, is connected to external part, parts of our body and our hip and now groin and so, you know, it's like we hear of like tightness in the groin and doing lunges and things like that. But, yeah, we're not really, not many people are talking about the pelvic diaphragm, unless they're talking about squeezing it in Pilates or in yoga, activating it. And this sort of consistent focus on activation is leads to what I'm seeing is like kind of a chronic issue with with pain in with penetration, pain with even touch, sometimes, because there is that, sorry to interrupt you, but there is that kind of, what, what am I looking for, like, obsession to be tight, right? And to where that's a tight pussy isn't necessarily a pussy that's going to offer us the deepest pleasure, or the 1,000,000% our healthy pelvic diaphragm can tighten and can also soften. It can have the full range. So it's like this muscle here, you know, that's a muscle right now. It doesn't look like a muscle, but that's a muscle when it's like, nice and soft. Our pelvic diagram should be able to be like this, but then if you tighten, it look suddenly it's not flip. And for anyone listening, I'm sort of using the underside of my mum. It's, yeah, it's, that's a really healthy pelvic diaphragm muscle. It can contract and it can expand. And, yeah, this focus, this obsession on a tight pussy and tightening, you know. And also, there's a lot of fear around incontinence as well. But what isn't really. Commonly known as that a weak pelvic diaphragm can also be due to it being hypertonic, due to it being too tight. Yeah, and yeah, we have this the terminology of pelvic floor, which is also kind of, it's kind of problematic in that when we think of a floor, it's like a hard surface, you know, it's something that's really there's you stand on the floor and it's really hard and it's and it's firm, whereas with the pelvic diaphragm, when it's really healthy, when you breathe, it actually moves with the breath. We have two diaphragms, our thoracic diaphragm and our pelvic diaphragm. And so this a really healthy pelvic diaphragm. If you sort of squat down, or if you pop your hand on your Yoni, there should be some kind of movement when we breathe, and none of this is talked about often. You know, a lot of us don't know even the term pelvic diaphragm, or know that we have a diaphragm there. So all of this culture around our pelvis is leaving us kind of blind to our pelvic health. And then people are coming to get support when it's a little bit too late. Well, not too late, but it's gotten to an extreme, and to the point where it's like, there's too much pain. You know, there might have been a little bit of pain with penetration, and because this is kind of like accepted in our sexual culture, then it just gets pushed through and pushed through and push through to the point where it's like, no position feels comfortable anymore, and there needs to be some kind of medical help. And a lot of people will will eventually get to the space of a pelvic floor, I'm going to say pelvic floor physio, because that's what the term that they use, which is great. You know, it's so great. We have pelvic floor physios. It's amazing. It's in the medical system. It's accepted. It's fine if you go and get a pelvic floor physio treatment, the only thing is that it's a little bit limited. And pelvic floor physios that are really good at their work will will also know this and that, you know it's bright lights, it's you're in and you're out. It's very clinical. It's not you're not there having emotional processes. It's very anatomical. And therefore, sometimes some people, the improvement is a little bit slower or not as holistic as it could be. Whereas with a Yoni massage, we do take time. We do process emotions. We do really like allow that space in saying that I think that they're both necessary. Pelvic floor physios are amazing, and that they can use an ultrasound on the outside of the abdomen, lower abdomen or and they can, they can see what's going on internally. They can, they can see the pelvic diaphragm and its health and see what's actually going on with it. So, okay, yeah, so people who have vulvodynia and vaginismus, where it's like, there is no touch happening, this is like a way where we can sort of go that really, like, slow, gentle approach. And yeah, so that you know that there are many options, and they're all really important. I love the that you shared, like, that importance of that emotional processing too, like, and it sounds like the Yoni Yoni massage is, yeah, like, very holistic in that, like, it can be very physically therapeutic. But then it's also not just treating this space. Is just a physical being and a physical Yeah, yeah, part of us, exactly, there's space to unwind the nervous system. You know, we even, like we, we don't get onto the table until the nervous system is feeling regulated. You know, it's very different. It's like, Oh, it's my appointment time to get on the table. So, yeah, it's, it's definitely a much slower, much more gentle, integrative approach. And then again, for someone who, or I'd love, just for you, if you're open to it, just describing, what is that? What does the treatment look like? So you've like, dropped in and you know, someone's feeling relaxed, and their nervous systems, you know, dropped in and relaxed once you're on the table. What is, what does that look like, in terms of the experience? So we go, we do massage of the body as well, just mainly focusing on areas that will help continue to soften and open. So we do some jaw massage, some breast massage, some lower abdominal massage, some groin and hip lower back massage, and some ankle massage. And then we do, we start with external massage of the yoni. And it's always sort of, I'm going to assume everyone knows what Yoni, yeah. So we're doing kind of like a it's very communicative when we get to the Yoni, yeah, it's incredibly trauma informed so that. And when you say communicative, you mean you communicating a lot with whoever's on the table, and a lot of consent, and a lot of checking in exactly 100% and also, and also getting them to communicate as well. Well, but, yeah, definitely more. So the practitioners checking in. You know, how was this pressure? Would you prefer this stroke or this stroke? Would you like to stay here longer, or would you like to move on? Next? We're going to move to this area so letting them know, and that way, they're also mapping out where we are in their anatomy. Because some people don't know, you know, they're getting potential, you know, for the first time ever, that sort of biofeedback of like, oh, that's what it feels like to be touched, to hear in this way. And I'm sure sorry to interrupt you, but I'm sure that, again, I work with a lot of women, and I think one of the biggest pieces in in sex for women is not, not. We don't have a culture where women feel safe to advocate for themselves, yeah, and vocalize, exactly right? So I'm even just seeing how healing that is when you know it's like permission, or almost you're needing to vocalize. You're needing to speak into the space right now, whilst you're being touched. How healing that can be for a woman and 100% and how, you know, I think if a if a woman doesn't actually begin to advocate for herself in the bedroom, probably even after a yearning massage, these kind of things can probably reoccur. And you know that that advocating for ourselves and speaking our needs is so, yeah, so fucking important. 100% I like. One of the things that I've noticed multiple times with people after they've had a session is that they will, they will have different experiences with their partners or lovers or new lovers from sort of that moment onwards. Yes, because this could be the first time in their entire lives that they've ever they've ever felt like they were worthy of taking time, of of having agency and over their body, of not feeling as though there's just entitlement to their body and that they owe something and that they're actually allowed to feel into Oh, is this is this okay for me? Is this right for me? Do I Do I even want this? Like, yeah, it is a huge sort of, I guess, touchstone for people to go back to of like, oh no. This is, this is what I deserve yes from other people. And it feels, it seems, as though it does have, like, it's like a shift in people's mentality and maybe even their frequency of who they allow into their bedroom. Yes, yeah, oh my god, having the blueprint for, like, someone being so deeply present with their their pussy, like, Yeah, you can't go back to someone not bringing a certain level of presence to your body after that, I don't think, or, like, coercing, yeah, you know, just subtle coercion that happens just so much in heterosexuality particularly, but in many different power dynamics as well. So it is a huge change. And also, I think, for people to to even know what their yes and their no feels like in their body, and there is still confusion. Like, it's not like, boom, one and done, like they're good, but it's a step on the path in the safest place possible. You know, it's like, there are rose petals, there's chocolate, there's tea, there are chats, there's all, you know, all of these beautiful things that are happening, where the focus is on the person and their Yoni, and therefore, if they don't, can't really connect to their yes Leno immediately. And maybe they, you know, maybe they're like, yeah, yeah, I'm ready to move on. But actually they wanted to stay there, but they're just sort of exploring and experimenting. It's such a safe place for them to do that, whereas I feel like, outside in the real world, it can be so scary to, like, start voicing boundaries and then, or trying to when they're not really knowing, and then crossing your own boundaries and then and somebody else crossing them because of not feeling sure or certain. So it feels like it's a really safe place for people to to not necessarily get it right and perfect, but to go on. Okay, had that experience, and now I know for sure that's a no, yes, if that makes sense, because, you know, it's so nuanced, it's so it's such an individual journey. And where somebody is at is, it doesn't always seem. It's not always apparent, and it's, and it's, it's beautiful to be able to explore that in safety completely. Yeah, okay, go on with where you were talking before around there, because I interrupted you. Yeah. A great interruption. So, yeah, so we were going step by step. We never, yeah, we never want somebody like, I try to set people up. There's expectations up that we may not even go internally, because we don't want to push and force this just because you're here. We just want to be with what your body needs right now, and stay with that. So, you know, I let them know how much time I have, how much time you know, and check in with them to see what works for them. And then we sort of work within that container. And I think I just love one of the things I teach in my work too, is like never for women, like not letting anything penetrate you before you're ready. And I think that's like a mind blowing concept for a lot of women, which is devastating, yeah, but mind blowing concept, like so many women, even that makes me emotional thinking about it, but like so many women, like, not even knowing that they have the right to like, oh, but if we've already started sex and like, oh, it should, you know, it always has to lead to that, or if I stop feeling it like I don't Oh, like, I'm not allowed to not have, you know, human side of me, or something inside of me. And I think that's that's just, again, something that I'm such an advocate for, and I think this would be such a huge part of you only massage, and maybe if someone goes and goes, Oh damn it. Like I thought there was going to be some kind of internal but then there wasn't like, but that's such a beautiful lesson and such an important lesson. Of like, it doesn't always end up there. And in fact, that's such an important thing that, you know, if we have a pussy, to be able to advocate for that. And, like, actually, I don't want anything inside of me. And, no, that's actually really important. And I've felt this in my own, you know, sexual experiences that that leads to deeper levels of pleasure. Oh, when I'm listening, when I'm such an advocate for my No, no matter when that is, that is, and if I override that, you know what is, and I'm sure you can speak into like, what that does physiologically when we're, like, overriding our No, and like, what that does to the, you know, the pelvic diaphragm and and our ability to experience deeper levels of pleasure, yeah. Well, we're certainly, not going to feel the pleasure we would if it was a Yes, right? It's going to be forcing, tensing, bearing down, pushing, like, there's, there's such a different relationship to when, you know, we're all puffy and engorged and like, it's going to feel it's like, fuck yeah, get inside me now, versus like, oh, I don't feel like it. I'm not wet, I'm not engorged, I'm not in the mood. I feel stressed. I just I'm not open and surrendered. And then to feel like, okay, now I have to try and make this at least enjoyable for me as well, or or act like it is. So it's over really quickly, which is such a go to for so many people. And this is why, you know, some people don't even want to make out with their partners, because they're terrified that that's going to lead to the expectation of penetration when they just don't want it. And like, this is a kind of a vulgar way to put it and it, but it's the thing that just comes to my mind all the time, is, like, just because I have a hole doesn't mean I want something inside. It doesn't mean that you have entitlement to it. You know, you may as well, just like, grab a flesh light if that's what you want, or see what that feels like for you. Having a hole, you have a butt hole. How would you feel if every single time we made out, or every single time there's any kind of intimacy, there's this expectation that I'm going to put something quite large inside of it when you're not ready, when you're not feeling it like and that's why I feel like people who male body, people who have Do, do, do anal play, have such a good understanding. I am so Jacob and I talk about this all the time, like we are such advocates for if you know, if you're having sex with a woman. And like, anal play is so important, like, for him in our experience, like, to have a deeper sense of reverence of what it takes to open and be ready, yeah? And like, how much presence that takes. And, yes, yeah, I think it can be very game changing for a man to experience that and then be like, Oh, that's super fucking vulnerable. Yeah, that's so fucking vulnerable. And, yeah, I'm all about that 100% and I feel like some people might, might like, potentially, think, oh, you know, but you know that, like, anal play, like there needs to be so much preparation and so much time and effort, hey, same like, you know, we take so much longer to become engorged, especially if we're not like, in the in the zone, like, we can't just drop out of like, go, go, go, do, do, do to like, surrender and like female boner, like it takes, can take 40 minutes, you know, for some people sometimes. And so that amount, same amount of time. Time and dedication should be given to our bodies and our pleasure. But I do feel like, because in heterosexual dynamics with male female body, it's almost like we do the like, the golden rule of like, treat each other how you want to be treated. But it just doesn't. It just doesn't work, because our anatomy is different, and we need more time. Yes, and thinking, Oh, he's got a hard cock. That means I should be ready. Like that. I just feel like that is such a collective Yeah. Like, what lie that so many women carry and then hold women, or have women having sex before they're ready. Have women missing out on, you know, the profound pleasure totally the pilgrimage it takes to really open and like, yeah, actually, yeah, because yeah, we as our bodies are so fucking different. Our pleasure is so fucking our pleasure is so fucking different. Yeah. I love that pilgrimage. Yeah. I love Who is it? Sherry, who wrote women's anatomy of arousal. I think it's her book, Sherry Winston. She talks about the pleasure pilgrimage. And like, starting from the outside of the body. And, like, you know, it's literally a pilgrimage. It's like this sacred pilgrimage to actually be able to enter her, yeah, yeah, yeah. So good. It's beautiful. So, so, yeah. I mean, with Yoni massage, yeah, we're not going into the erotic, we're not going into stimulation. It's very much seeking sensation with touch. Is there pleasure, pressure, pain or numbness? If there's pleasure, we map it. We acknowledge it like, Hey, thank you, pleasure. I let them know where we are, where that pleasure was, and then we move on, or I check in. You know, are we ready to move on? We might take a couple of breaths there. If there's pain, we stay with that, that part of the body, until either it shifts or it it feels like it's time to move on. It doesn't always shift with massage. Usually does, like nine times out of 10 it does. We brute. We take breaths into it. We sort of slow, slow everything right down. If there's just pressure, like the sensation of touch, then we just map it out. Okay, cool. That's you know, how you feel right now in this moment. And then if there's numbness, we stay with it until sensation comes, and it always comes with breath and touch. I would love to hear your perspective on numbness and yeah, if you have much to say, yeah. So it feels, there's kind of like, I guess, sort of approach that give us all of it, give us Yeah. So it feel, it feels to me, particularly with the cervix. It feels like armor. It feels like a disconnect, almost like with our neural in the way that I sort of make sense of it with science, with our neural pathways that form really strongly and wire together really profoundly, and, yeah, in a way that we can tap back into it really easily, is if there's pleasure, because we are sort of a pleasure, a desire, we go towards pleasure, you know, like, that's Something that lights itself, sugar, yum, addicted, like yummy, touch, yes, pleasure, yes, and we go away from pain. You know, it's our survival. If something's hot, if it's going to burn us, it could, you know, so for me, the way that I sort of see that is, if there has been pain or discomfort, disgust, there's almost like a disconnect of not wanting to feed those neural pathways of sensation and not wanting to focus on it, not wanting to connect to it. And so there's almost like parts of ourselves that feel so and also a lack of understanding and embodiment in that part of our body. It's like, I know, I kind of know exactly what my elbow looks like, and I also know how it feels to touch it. But for a lot of people, if their their Yoni was in a lineup, they they wouldn't be able to pick it, which is wild. And they may also not know, like, I can't tell you how many times, and you know, this is absolutely no shame at all for people who have this experience where I get them to sort of engage the pelvic diaphragm, and they can't, and they don't know where it is, and you know, so, oh, you know when you sort of stop yourself from wing and and they can engage it a little bit. And then once they are actually in their body and are able to sort of connect in, like, sometimes we actually roll up a towel and sort of place it length ways underneath the pelvis and sit on it. And that way they can have that biofeedback of sort of touch against it, to be able to engage and be like, Oh, okay, that's where it is, or something like a Yoni egg, where the Yoni egg is touching inside. So they can kind of. To make that connection, yeah. But it does feel like, because of, you know, just the oppression of female sexuality, the shame around it, the trauma in it, collectively, that we all in such a sort of, I guess, sex negative culture, particularly around, you know, like slut shaming and fear of, you know, this is, this is a sort of prized possession that everybody wants peace of as we're growing up. It's like, it's such a, yeah, it's such an intense relationship that we have with it, but so much so that we can almost like, be scared of it and scared of feeling. And so that, for me, feels like a huge part of the numbness. It can also be from lack of blood flow to the through the, you know, fascia and through the muscles because of the stuckness and the stiffness and tightness and so all of those nerve fibers aren't getting, you know, bathed in the blood and aren't all yummy and juicy and soft and supple and so, yeah, there's not much sensation there. So when we start doing massage and bringing that blood flow in, moving the muscles, getting movement in parts that can get quite stuck and stiff, then sensation can come. So those are, I guess, my two understandings of numbness in there. I love, yeah, I really feel you in both of those. And I love the just the way you put it. Then it's like so many people would not be able to pick out their Yoni in a in a lineup. Like so, so true. And that almost like disassociation with this, with this part of us. And what we're saying before, it's like, such a disassociation from this part of us. But then we get into the bedroom and it's like, Oh, give me pleasure, and give me an orgasm, and feel the things that I want. And it just like the way we relate to this space, like, culturally, obviously, yeah? Like, it doesn't make sense, the way we like, disconnect from it, yeah, but then expect so much from it at the same time, yes, yeah, yeah. We're expected to be this, like, down to fuck, like, sexual, orgasmic being that's just, like, ready for sex any moment. But from, like, a very young age, you're like, told, close your legs, you know, like, that's something that's dirty and embarrassing and shameful. And there's almost this, like, from, from, like, I remember being told to close my legs so young. And there's just this, like, like, wiring of our nervous system, of this like pattern of holding, of like, oh, clothes. This is bad, like, this is too tempting. This is too like, also disgusting, you know, like hearing these, these, these words that have been used to describe how Yoni smells, how Yoni looks, it's like, yeah, no wonder there. There's a lot of disconnect happening. And even like me being about to give birth, like any day now, just seeing how that then links into, you know, our ability to to birth and open. And when a beautiful teacher of mine talks about, like, birth as a sexual experience, and she's like, the same way the baby gets in is the same way the baby gets out, like, the same kind of, like, surrender and openness it takes, and probably the the way the tissues are and, like, all of all of that, like, great the same things that create great sex, great orgasms create, you know, an open birth and a surrendered birth. And, yeah, yeah, that same like, yes, again, we're being told, you know, close our legs, like, disconnect from this space, but this space is just such an important fucking life giving part of us, yeah, yeah. And, and they're all so different, which I think is really cool. So I remember, like, my first, I guess, five to 10 Yoni massages to be like, Whoa, how. How is this so different from the last one? How is this one so different from the last one? Like, there's, like, we're talking about, like, the obsession with tightness. Some people just anatomically are smaller. Some people anatomically, the entrance of their Yoni is wider without giving birth, like it just is, like, it's just that's just like, their their anatomy. And so I think that's also another, yeah, another huge piece of like, treating our vulva and vagina and womb space is the pelvic area as kind of, like a, like a monolith, or like, it's like, it's just, it's just one, it's supposed to be one way, which is so confusing for people that don't have, you know, it's like, it's hidden. It's underneath. We don't see it in the locker room like everybody else in the male body, like, we don't have that, like, that kind of like exposure, you know? And so there's a lot of, like, mystery, which, yes, wild, totally, because it's as a woman, you're not growing, yeah? Like you're not seeing a lot of other Yeah. Vulvas, unless you're, you know, having same sex relationships or seeking it out. Yeah, that's so true. You're not seeing a lot of which can have a lot of women feeling, you know, a class I do with women is pleasure anatomy, and I show them lots of different, you know, vulvas and so many women are like, Oh my God, there's one that looks like me up there. Oh my gosh. I I've always felt like there was something wrong with my vulva, or no one else looked like me, or like it was meant to look like this and just that, yeah, that we're not we're not shown. Or if you know, the only other real access point is like porn, which is a very distorted, you know, view of or giving us very distorted images of what you know normal might look like. Yeah, it's no hair going on, no most mainstream Paul, yeah, it's, it's, it's a shame, because I do feel like that knowledge is power, you know, and the more that we know about our bodies. Like, I've had people that have thought that they weed out of their clitorises before, like, there's just that, yeah, there's and so one huge aspect of Yoni massage is that the like therapeutic body work aspect, but then there's a whole integration of the self, of the whole self, you know, it's like, oh yeah, I know what my foot looks like. I know it feels like to, you know, massage my shoulder, and then like, oh, I can actually put my hands on my own body, and I can feel and look at myself, and start, also start cultivating, you know, in best case scenario, a compassionate, loving relationship with this part of our body. Because even, like, I have worked with same sex couple people that are in same sex relationships, and even in those situations, there can be shame around how that vulva looks, just because of culture. Like, there can be a lot of like, you know, flicking the lights off before any kind of pussy play. And, yeah, it's, it's ubiquitous, like it is. It's, now we're slowly starting like we had this law in Australia, I think it still exists, where, in soft porn, the inner labia had to be like, reduced to a single crease. So the only in a labia that could be seen in soft porn was almost no in a labia, essentially. And so that was in our legal system. I did not know, yeah, yeah, it's and that's still, that's still a thing. So I don't think it's changed. Last time I checked it hadn't changed. Yeah, that's wild. Yes, yeah, that's the way it had been interpreted. Like the language is quite kind of vague, but it was interpreted to be okay. We'll call in soft porn that we cannot have, like in a labia showing because there'd be more creases. Yeah, yeah. So that's, that's the culture that we're kind of coming from with porn, along with many other, many other problems, yeah. So that's the external, yes, we, if we have time, so we, we massage, we start getting to know the yoni. We do inner labia. The inner labia is, you know, it's plush enough to hold. Then we also massage it, sort of in between the fingers. If not, then we sort of do more stroking and holding, like we do with the outer labia, and then with going internal. This is, I guess, the most important part of the session, where it is all about that feeling, for the Yes, and also for the practitioner to really allow the the client to listen to their yes and to not question them. Because I think what can happen is practitioners can get kind of caught up in like, like that seemed like it was a no, but they said yes, and I don't want to re traumatize them, but then if, like, we're going in, like, questioning people, then that's just, like, gets them in the head. And so yeah, I really encourage my students to, in the beginning, sort of say we'll do a double check in and set them up for a double check in multiple scenarios. So it's not like, like, in that moment that they're like, Yeah, I'm feeling a yes, and then the person's like, hey, sure. And they're like, Oh, I thought it was so yeah, we can do little double check ins here and there, bits of, like, parts of the body. We're always asking for consent. Yeah, pretty much when it comes to any of the genitalia, it's also really important, actually, before we go anywhere, we get into boundaries, because a lot of people aren't connected to their boundaries yet, and might be like, yeah, no, I've got none. Let's go like, I trust you. And I kind of have to sit with them and say, I know you trust me, and that's really beautiful, like you're here, but let's still, like, explore it. So for me, if this was me, I would say, I don't want this. I do want this. I need to know this, and I. Give them some examples. And then we sit with their boundaries as well. And then, you know, let them know that that's not set in stone. It can change, you know, as we we go through, like, something might come up, which is really, really beautiful to see them say, Oh, actually, I think I might need another blanket, you know, like, and not just like, put up with it. Put up with feeling uncomfortable Yes, and then if it's a yes, and we go into the Yoni and then we explore the Yoni verse and kind of like the same what we do with external we're doing this similarly internally, and we're working with muscles and fascia internally. We do G spot and a spot. Explore, exploration. If we can reach the cervix, sometimes we can, we also do some work with the cervix. And for anyone, I think actually, would you be able to describe, because I was, I was gonna say, I feel like most people would know where the g spot is, but I also feel like maybe, no, maybe like six, seven years ago, I don't think I did. Yeah, yeah. So would you be able to describe for someone where the g spot is and where the a spot is? Yeah, so on the anterior wall of the vaginal canal, so the sort of front side that would be, you know, kind of pressing against your bladder, or the front side of your body, just sort of in from the inside of the entrance up until around about an inch, we'll say, is the G Zone. It's the it feels like the ridged part of the top of your mouth. And everybody's different for this area. So some people can feel a lot of pleasure, like, right, right at the entrance, whereas some people it's like, Midway back, and other people it can be a little bit further back, and it generally feels, only really feels yummy when we're super engorged. Otherwise, it is pressing against the urethral channel. So it can, yeah, it can feel like you need to we're a little bit uncomfortable. So again, engorgement, yes, yum. Best, best way you can feel D spot or G zone pleasure. And then if you keep going up on the same sort of anterior wall, and this is really beautiful because this is also a sensation thing. And it's not very like it's difficult, unless you have a very shallow vaginal canal to feeling yourself. It's quite deep. It's beautiful because it's it. This can require a lot more sort of communication, and being very slow and present with the sensation. Because it's, it can be super pleasurable, pleasurable for some people. For other people, not so much. But generally, you'll feel something a little bit different there, and underneath the finger is the texture changes a little bit, which is why, yeah, it's really cool to have that communication with somebody, because they can sort of like, Oh, this feels different. Is it here? Does this feel nice, like so, yeah. And I mean, in a Yoni massage, because they're not engorged, it's not going to feel like super pleasurable for everybody. Some people, it all feels super pleasurable the whole time. For some people, some parts feel really pleasurable. And some people, it can feel painful, yeah, numbness, all of all of the iterations. And then if you go kind of behind where the finger would be right, right up inside of the vaginal canal, sort of behind the finger, there'll be a kind of like the tip of the nose, sort of cartilage feeling. And depending on where the uterus is placed in the pelvic bowl, is where you'll be touching. So, yeah, it can be, it could be like touching just sort of the front side of the cervix, or it might actually be the tip of the cervix. And when we're here, we're generally just doing a little bit of either circular motion, if we can touch the tip, or just a little bit of light tapping, and it will generally go from feeling numb to pleasurable. Sometimes there can be pain there, but it doesn't take very long to start feeling nice sensations, which, yeah, is really cool, because, you know, especially if you can reach a cervix in a young massage, it's always like, yes, bingo, we got there, but it's less common to be able to and that's just anatomically, just for Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. And some people say, you know, in different parts of the cycle, it can change. You know, if there's a lot of sort of blood in the uterus, it might be a little bit further down in the vaginal canal. Sometimes, I've had some clients pop their knees up if they feel comfortable, so it sort of like squishes it down a little bit. But yeah, some people, anatomically, their vaginal canal is super long. And yeah, some people it's quite short. Some people might have had a little bit of prolapse, some different stage of prolapse, so it might be easier to reach as well. And then we kind of finish there. And when we do before we do all of that area, we go around kind of like a clock. So if you were to look at the Yoni, 12 o'clock would be where the G Zone is, and then would just sort of go one o'clock around to 11. One and 11 o'clock are kind of like. Ridges along the side of the the the G Zone, and then the muscles are kind of 10 to 210, o'clock to two o'clock. And there are different muscles, like there are superficial muscles right at the entrance, and then there are muscles deeper inside. And yeah, we kind of just sort of work the muscle in the way that feels the best for the client. So some people kind of like a rhythmic stroke. Some people like a press and hold, or like a combination. If there's pain, they might be like, Oh, actually, let's try it. Do this for a little bit, and then and I will feel it sort of release and soften underneath my finger. And then at six o'clock is the the space that is best to work on when we are preparing for birth. This is the six, seven and five is kind of along that perineal spine, Yes, uh huh, uh huh. And bad, and, and, and, like a, like, an internal massage in that area. Yeah, internal and external. So with the external, we do do the perineum, and we'll do a little glove swap, because we use gloves with the only massage after we do the perineum before going internal, because we just want everyone to feel like, okay, cool. There's no, like, poop anywhere. We don't want that going inside. Not that we go we don't do any, I don't do any anal release, but do recommend it. It's awesome to do on on ourselves, but yeah, so externally and internally, on that area is it is like, super recommended for, for preparing the body for birth. I only do it as a practitioner, either pre birth or in the sort of the last weeks of the third trimester, and sort of six weeks before birth, is what I recommend people to to start just doing a little bit on them with with their partner. It's kind of hard to reach on on yourself, especially with a big belly, yeah, it's not, definitely nowhere near as comfortable when I do, do do it with a with a pregnant mama, we do sort of like it's a different setup, because, yeah, we've got to kind of prop them up on cushions so They're sort of seated versus laying down. Yeah, and yeah, it's, there are a couple of different really awesome. So we've got the muscle and the fascia that we're relaxing and releasing. We're bringing blood flow. It's so nice and healthy. None of that numbness, none of that disconnect, like we're really in that part of the body. And there's also, like I was saying before, with the surrender and letting go and relaxing, we use those kind of words, those words in a Yoni massage to start sending that, you know, having that psychosomatic connection of, like blossoming. I love using the word blossoming. That's like, Yeah, me too, because it's like, just, you can just imagine, like, the flower of the Yoni just opening up and softening and and so these tools are also kind of coming into play when somebody, if they've never been connected to their Yoni before, and then suddenly there's a baby coming out of it. Like, there is a lot of, you know, like birth trauma is rampant. This is something that can really help somebody to stay in their body, to listen to their body, to navigate those you know, I don't want to talk about too much with pregnant mama here, so, but you know what I mean? Like, it is really, it is really, like a really potent tool to be able to go into a Yoni, into sorry, into pregnancy, sorry, into birth with because it is, yeah, it's, it's the muscles are happy, the body's happy, but the mind is now connected to the Yoni, and that may have never been the case before. Yeah, you know, totally it's like, oh, we're there. We're there. We're not just up here and operating kind of from the neck up, but we're we've dropped right down into the pelvic space. And all of the messages that are getting sent aren't being missed. We're actually able to pick them up and listen to them without fear. You know, it's not like, Oh, what the fuck is that? What was that? It's like, oh, yeah, I know my body can do that. I know it feels like stingy when, like with with perineum, perineal massage, it can feel really like stingy, right? That's a weird sensation to feel like in that area that, yeah, if you've never touched that before, you don't know that exists. So if that maybe happens during contractions, or something's happening in birth, and there's a strange sensation, then it could be like, fuck, what's that? It's like, oh, no, no. I know my body. I know these sensations. I. I have been here before. I have felt my body before. So the only thing we don't do with pregnancy Yoni massage is we don't go into the emotional realm. We don't transmute, we don't go we don't go deep into wounds or we keep it as sort of light we I can't. We kind of do it like I do when I'm doing the training. Okay, so that the energy is sort of spiraling upwards. It's not, we're not going down deep down into the depths and transmuting that while Bubba's in there, you know, got you where in if someone wasn't pregnant and you're doing your massage, if something is arising for them, is that something that you as a practitioner, or your practitioners, really, you know are available for and that's part of Yeah, becomes part of the session as well. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So we use, we use a practice where we we have like different tools right to be able to move and shift things. So if something comes up, then we we we work with thought like the we use a model called times. So we use like the thoughts that are coming up, and we watch them and we see, you know, how is that serving us? What other thoughts can we bring in that might feel a little bit better and might help and help things shift? We use imagery as well, so an image might pop up out of nowhere. Hey, you know, memories come through as images, right? And depending on the practitioner holding the space and their particular sort of skill set with trauma is, how, where they go with anything that's traumatic, they might need to make sure they're working alongside a trauma specialist. Yeah, we definitely don't pick at trauma and re traumatize. But it might be like, okay, cool. Like, so how, how is this image creating a belief in you that isn't helping you, and how can we infuse it and change it for you and create new meaning for you so that it's not trapping so it might have been something that the belief or the meaning that came from it might be, might have Been, I'm unworthy, I'm unlovable, I I'm not beautiful. I have no voice. And then instead, imbuing that image, or sort of bringing, bringing in thoughts and feelings that are like that make us feel in a sense of safety or of awe or of beauty in sort of in the nervous system of, like, okay, cool. Like, that's something that happened then, and I couldn't handle that and that, those were my beliefs I got from it then. But now I'm saying, Oh, I was young, and I deserved better, and I deserve more, or like, my I do have a voice now, and I can I'm actually being heard telling you this, you know, like, we work through things like that, we work through movement. So if some, if something's coming up for somebody, and it feels as though, like, the stress response, the stress cycle, wasn't completed, they might need to, like, do some kind of movement, like a dog, like shakes out after like, they get annoyed at something, yeah, you know, or a baby, like screams, or like, throws a tantrum, like, Kid throws a schedule, get it out. They might need to do something like that. They might need to, like, push somebody away that sort of came in, cross their boundaries. So we might use some movement. We might work with the emotions. So, like, what emotions are coming up? What color are they? Where are they in your body? And we might watch them change and shift, or we're using the sensations. So what sensation, what color is that sensation? Or what were what does it feel like now? Or what does it feel like, you know, after you do this movement, or this kind of breath and and sort of that, I guess, that neuroplasticity of pain reprocessing, where the interpretation of the sensation can start changing when we start watching it and creating space around it and not having fear, because the fear can feed the pain. So, so, yeah, that's, that's, I kind of forget how I got into that, those methods, but that's kind of what, what we're working with, beautiful, yeah, I was talking about if, because you were saying with a pregnant woman, you're not necessarily going to go into the depth of right? You know, any emotional trauma or anything that's coming up, yeah? What would you say to someone who's listening obviously, like a hands on experience with a practitioner would be the ultimate. But would you also suggest, if someone's listening in like, Oh, can I start to explore this on my own body? Or I would love my partner to like, you know, even just meet like, I love what you were saying at the beginning. And this has been game changing in my own experience, in in my, you know, marriage, to just have my husband lay his hands on my pussy without, mm. You know, expectation. And a lot of the time it's, it's me having the expectation. It's, he's good at releasing the expectation, but it's that can come up for me a lot of like, I like putting pressure on my pussy to orgasm or take me to a certain place. So, you know, it's so beautiful, as part of our intimacy sometimes is, yeah, just him. Like this happened the other night, him just massaging my pussy and just being with it. And, yeah, I'd love to hear what you suggest. And how, if someone's listening, it's like, I want to start this. Would you suggest them exploring their own you're only first. Yeah, I think if somebody is going to see a practitioner, and they don't have any kind of phobia of touching themselves, because some people do suffer from that, then I think that they should do a self journey massage before going to see a practitioner. Okay? And why would you suggest that? Just because of that connection? Yeah, totally. I think. Like, I mean, while it's, you know, likely going to be one of the most beautiful and relevant, reverent experiences of somebody's life, of being held in that way, like, it is it by another woman or female body practitioner, and just being held like, Oh, it's just so amazing. At the same time, you know, going in blind, there could be some unnecessary nerves that are there that might not be there if you're already feeling connected. And so it could just start that regulation, nervous system regulation a little bit earlier, so that you're going and be like, Yeah, cool. Like, I know my body. I look, you know, hello, feel. Let's see what else is there, yeah. Versus, like, I don't know, go for it. Like, yeah. And, I mean, I do do that with clients that, come on, come in, we do a little bit of self exploration. But if they've, they've never done it before, then yeah, can feel like, a lot of people can rock out, feeling like, oh, shaky and scared and nervous and like in their head and so, yeah, getting into their body and feeling like, comfortable in this area can be a really beautiful sort of segue, but also, just like a nice self care practice, even if they're not going to get a Yoni massage to do it for themselves. Like we can reach, you know, we can't reach all the way inside with our hands, but we can use tools. We can. We can work these muscles like we can. We can we have like that power, even just like the softening, like just now I did it because I'm getting all excited. I was like, softening is softening. I just felt my pelvic floor open and relaxed and open. We have so much that we can do to maintain pelvic health and not, you know, need to then get to, like, a dire circumstance of really intense pain and, and, and then, yeah, with a lover, I think, you know, you and I are very lucky that we have lovers that are like that. They're super open minded and connected and but there are so many lovers that aren't and so I think that can be really tricky, like really tricky, to be able to have that experience with with a partner, potentially, without them having an understanding first. So, yeah, I recommend to do a lingam or paint a cock worship ritual on them first, so that they can see. Oh, wow, that's really beautiful. That's really special, or that's what she wants, or that's what she means, kind of like that show, don't tell, kind of thing of like this, yeah, this is, this is what's possible, and this is what I would love. So I think that, yeah, like, cog worship, in that aspect, is amazing for ourselves as well. It's like, it's amazing for our partner, but it also is like creating the space for us to receive the same kind of devotion I was saying, Yeah, first, we've spoken about Coco worship on the podcast before, but if someone was like, oh, I want to, I want to offer that to my man, yeah, what would you Yeah? What? What would you suggest? Yeah, um, I mean, there are so I've got resources, but I think if you do your research into like what you're wanting, like a Yoni massage, or like reading, reading some articles, like maybe watching some things on YouTube, the thing that I love is like setting up the space, making it really yummy, really beautiful, having roses, Having yummy smells, and then giving them a massage, any any kind of cock, touch without any expectation. You know, it gets hard, it gets soft again. It gets hard again, it gets soft again, all the while, like, saying really beautiful things about their cock, and then, just like having a cuddle afterwards. So then they can be like, Oh, okay, that's possible. That's. Beautiful. Like, I've had partners definitely cry and, yeah, just feel so different in their sensuality, I guess, is where it's sort of shifting into their sort of sensuality, and, yeah, energized and, like, it's kind of like a little bit of, like, a mind blowing moment where it's like, okay, like, it's not like born, it's not like the movies, like, there's actually so it's like the the what, like endless possibilities of how we can touch and adore and appreciate each other's intimate touch that doesn't necessarily need to be erotic. Oh my gosh, yes. And I think for like, culturally, for men, there is, and I know this was the case for my husband, it was just like, oh, the only time, I think even more so often, for men, it's like that, oh, the only time I'm touching this is to, you know, pee. Or to, you know, quickly jack off. Like, totally, right? And to, I know that can be such a healing something that we, as, if we're in a heterosexual relationship, we as women can offer our man like, almost like, open the doorway for them totally be like, Look at what is possible. Or like, let me offer you this gift where I don't need anything from you, yeah. And I know that there's Yeah. And, like, what you said, it's just like, I don't think there has to be. Or when I've practiced linger massage, it's like, it's not as if I'm like, following, okay, touch here first and do this. It's like, I'm just gonna massage his body. You don't have to go straight to the COVID, massage the body, and then I'm just gonna, yeah, I'm just gonna touch this beautiful part of my man without, yeah, without expectation, or without trying to get him anywhere, just like really breathing into it and, yeah, like worshiping and touching and allowing him to have whatever experience he needs to have, exactly like bringing them in, into their heart, Yes, you know, like dropping them out of, like, head heavy, heady sensuality or sexuality. And, I mean, it's something I definitely prescribe for people who have erectile disappointment, rapid ejaculation, any kind of, like, any all of those kind of, like the pressure, performance, anxiety, like all of these things that, yeah, that we have in our own bodies or in our partners bodies. I think slowing it down and bringing in devotion is such a beautiful and it's like a way to, yeah, soothe, you know, it might still be there, it might still be present, but I feel like it. I've seen it like, really soothes those, those wounds and, yeah, the hurt that can come from, from that as well. Like, there's so much shame around, like, what, there is a lot of shame around vulvas and female sexuality, but there's so much shame around male sexuality and penises as well. Like, even just like hiding their bonus or like quickly, quickly, quickly jerking off before their mom walks past their room, or whatever you know, like this is so like embarrassing and shameful and gross, and so these moments where we slow down, it's like re writing the narrative of their body, their cock, their sexuality, their virility, you know, it's, it's, and they can have soft cock orgasm, you know, they can have non ejaculatory or, like, there's so many, so many things that are possible that just that can't be experienced in those, like, yeah, porn style sex scenes, that is, like the go to for yes, I would say that most people totally and just what you said about, you know, Jacob and I've had so many conversations around that, like, for a lot of, you know, young men or boys growing up, their first experience of their body is like, how quickly can I do this? How quickly can I get this thing out? How quickly can I, like, you know, have this experience so that I don't get caught. Or, like, Jacob, and I've had, we've spoken about it on the podcast, that he didn't have a lock on his bathroom growing up, so it would be even more like, ah, like, how quickly can I do this thing? And he did a 14 day like, self pleasure challenge years ago, and it was this, like, total rewriting of like him, just feeling all the parts of him that thought it had to happen really quickly, and like rewiring him. And just like so many, you know, we do as women, but I think just having also that perspective, again, for heterosexual women to be like, Oh, our men, like this is such a gift when we slow down with our men, yeah, as well. Because I think we, you know, I work with so many women, and this is, like, one of the deepest yearnings of a heterosexual woman in relationship, yeah, in the bedroom, it's like, I just wish he slowed down with me. I wish he, you know, could offer my body more presents. But also, it's like, ah, can are we offering his cock presidents? Are we being slow with him? Are we like, really? Yes, you know. Yeah, offering the depth of our presence, because that could that is so healing, even though he might not be asking for that. Yes, that can be so deeply healing for him as well, 100% and like, there's this kind of like, of course, there's going to be rapid ejaculation, if that's like, how the neural pathway is being wired to be like, quick, quick, quick, quick. It's like, but actually, like, they actually want to be like, swimming around in there for hours. But it's, it's, yeah, it's a very well worn pathway when, like, I was saying, when it comes to pleasure, it can require work and effort. It's like, the way that I kind of think of it is, like, you're going to the beach. You go the pathway that everyone walks, and it's like, a really well worn pathway. There's the ocean there. And you're like, yes, like, there's ocean. I can see it so easy to get to, but there's actually, there are, like, other paths that you can take to get to the beach. But, like, it's not that easy, you know, it's not that well worn pathway. And so you might need to, like, climb through a couple of trees. You might need to cut away a little bit of the brush, but you'll get there, and you can't just, like, click your fingers and make it, make it through the through the other side. So I feel like, when it comes to our pleasure, and we're, like, creating new neural pathways, bit of time, bit of dedication is needed to be able to do that, but it's so possible. I love that you really bridge, like, the like you were saying, woo, woo. But, like, yeah, that emotional, woo, woo, it like, but also with the science as well. Like, I think that's so important and so beautiful, and, yeah, like you said, I think it's just with what you were saying about the neural pathways, then it's like, yeah, this is a practice, you know, it's and that's been in my experience, like, my own personal practice, and then practicing bringing those tools into my partnered sexual experiences. And, yeah, we can't, even though we'd love to, like, just click our fingers and be like, multiple orgasms and, you know, I'm squirting and all these things. It's like there's actually, whether this is emotional pieces or, you know, to meet the trauma that's stored in our body, or just to create a new pathway where we're more like, pleasure is more accessible, or where, you know, our body is, is, you know, there's more blood flow. And all these pieces that you've been speaking to that that doesn't happen overnight, and I think that's such an important piece to speak into 100% and, like, I kind of like to say with clients, it's like a it's an experiment. Every time you do practice, it's an experiment. And we get feedback, and we we learn, oh, okay, like, maybe, maybe I'll try this this time. Maybe it's not a failure. You're not wrong. Like your body, where it's at, is actually perfect, because that's the only way you can learn where to go from here, is by listening to it and being present with it, and being and taking away that, oh, all of that, all that pressure that we put on ourselves, like in all aspects of life, but it's particularly with sex. It's like, yeah, so much pressure. And when we take that away, it could just become fun again, and like it was when we're young, like it was all an experiment. Then we didn't know what we're doing. And for the most part, for most people, it's like, super juicy and yummy. And like, just like, dry humping is amazing, because it's like, yeah, what is this? Oh, my God, I love that. Remember those days, yeah? And I think that that sense of and this is something I really bring into my work, I speak about that curiosity, and I think sometimes we don't really bring a sense, excuse me, especially in if you're in a long term relationship and you're like in a monogamous relationship, sometimes you just think you know that body. You just do the same thing, and it's like there's no sense of curiosity with your partner's body. But then also, we're not really taught to be curious about our own body. Like you said, a lot of women aren't necessarily even going to know what their pussy looks like, or know where you know the anatomical structures within her, yeah. And so that sense of like, and I think in my own personal relationship with pussy, it's like, oh, learning to just touch her, like, curious, like a child, like, exploring. Like, not like, not not just like, Oh, what is this thing? Yeah, what does it feel like when I touch here? Like, what's here? What's this consuming? Yeah, you know, yes. Like, I feel like I'm still learning so much about my pleasure, and it's always changing. And same as my partner, like, yeah, we recently found something that they really like. And I, I had, like, assumed that I kind of knew what was going on with their penis. But, yeah, it's, it's a definitely, like, especially for me, like, I changed during my cycle, so even that is, like, another layer, you know, yeah, like, we. Can't just assume and that, yeah, the curious, curiosity pieces is really big. And I think the same is true with Yoni massage. Like, I don't, I don't. I try not to set expectations up for people that it's going to be, you know, any particular way, because it's the same, like, like I was saying before, like we may not even get internal work. We may not even get onto the table, depending on where somebody's at, and then sort of tying it also in with pregnancy, like you might do all of the right things. You might do the massage, like the with the the Yoni massage, on yourself and with your partner, or have a practitioner help, and there still might be a tear, there still might something, still might happen. So I think it's really important, just like, show up, sorry, do enjoying the chat, do what we can, and then allow the rest to show, show us what it needs and where it needs a little bit more love or a little bit more attention as it comes up and, and also with it, sort of just to go back with pregnancy massage and emotions and things like that, if something does come up emotionally, and it's so fine to cry and to express And, and it's just that we don't sort of dig in deep, you know, we don't. The intention isn't to be like, Okay, let's go to your deepest trauma. Yeah, exactly. It might be like something comes up and some joy or a bit of rage or a bit of sadness or grief, you know, that's okay, but yeah, I really urge people just sort of just be mindful of, like, Bubs here, we haven't really, like, asked Bob permission to, like, work through all of this together and, and, yeah, it's, it's like we're also saying before, like, with it, with the, you know, we don't have to always learn through pain. Yes, it is a huge teacher. But we can also learn through pleasure, and we can, you know, allow the emotions to come through us, but then bring us, bring us back into regulation. You know, if sadness and grief or overwhelm comes up, allow it to move through and then come back to regulation. Like I have some clients sing, you know, while we're doing a Yoni massage to regulate and to like, you know, and sing, you know, from their womb of like, and this beautiful sound comes out. And like, angelic. And it's like, oh yeah. It's like, gives, gives us goosebumps and, and there's, yeah, there's this, this beauty that we can also, we can also work through things in in beauty and and in a space of feeling held, yeah, I think that we kind of come full circle talking about like that, that joy and that Yeah. And I think that that's such an important piece in, like, the coaching space and, like, just the healing space, to really see the power of like, healing through joy and healing through pleasure. And that can be a choice sometimes, right? Or it like, you know, to have the ability to go into the depth and the darkness, but to choose to come back, because it can sometimes, you know, that can kind of be a loop that I see people kind of staying in, and it's like, okay, I'm down here and let's go again, and let's but it's, it's for me, the way I live and the way that I really teach is like we, we meet all of that so that we can liberate ourselves into deeper levels of joy, and we can, you know, Hold deeper level of pleasure and liberation in our body, 100% so it's to be able to, yeah, choose to come back to that place, yeah, yeah, 100% and I think that the Yeah, I think I feel like Yoni massage is a beautiful place for that. Because, yeah, we end we have cacao together. We have, like, a little bit of it. We don't go too deep into things that come up. We have, like, a call afterwards, okay, cool, whenever, you know, an integration call afterwards. But it's just so yummy and so juicy, and they're like, COVID in rose petals. Or they go and have go and have a shower and, like, wash the rose petals off. And it's like, oh, like, it's, it's ceremony. You know, it's not just like, Yeah, you don't just go in and get your pussy massage and you go, it's like, it's a whole beautiful process that, yeah, I feel like everybody deserves either with themselves. You know, set up some roses and chocolates yourself and and do some beautiful work, like on yourself or or be held by a partner or a practitioner, yeah, a certified practitioner, yes, not one, not one on Tinder. Not one on Tinder. Yeah, other people on Tinder being like, I am a oh yeah, Yoni masseuse, yeah? Wowza, yeah. Yeah, I did a whole video on it the other day. Like no, no, wild west out there. So, okay, before, before, I would love to hear like for you to share on how to find you, how to find a certified practitioner as well, but anything else you'd love to share about you any massage or anything before we before we close up, um, I guess something like just as additional tools for your pelvic diaphragm. I love that you're bringing that in, because that was something I wanted to soccer back to, because you're like, there's lots of tools. I was like, bring us the tools. Okay, yes, tell us. So when you're doing your like stretching and yoga and things like that, really allow yourself the time and space for for releasing and maybe even like bringing in some intentionality around it, of like, oh, let's make sure I do do some hip openers, and I do do some lunges, and do do some happy babies or pigeon or, you know, all of those. They all really help with releasing and relaxing. And then you can also do a little bit of like you can, you can sit on the it's kind of hard to explain, but you can sit on the ground and, like, walk forwards on your butt. Yeah, if you can kind of imagine that, kind of like a dog, like drags, imagining you could do that actually, doing it on a seat. On a seat is easier. I tried both ways. On a seat is easier. So you just sort of sit right at the back of the seat and then just walk forward. Or you can get somebody to massage, or you can massage on yourself, sort of like the underside, sort of of the sits bones, like, yeah, yeah. That can really help release. And there are some special. They're called Franklin bowls. Yes, I used to, I had, yeah, one of those, yeah, as long as it's a nice and soft left, yeah, yeah. You want to be really careful. You want to use, like a hard, like a tennis ball or something like that. You want to specifically designed bowl for pelvic diaphragm release so you can sort of sit on that. You can sit on a rolled up towel, like I was mentioning before, and then doing some like, mindfulness practices. Of if you do do your Kegels, make sure don't do them. If you have a hypertonic pelvic diaphragm or pelvic floor, like, really tense, that's the last thing you want to be doing. And that would be, if someone's experiencing a lot of pain during sex, you would say, yeah, exactly. And if you are like, I do recommend to see a pelvic floor physio to be able to see like, exactly what's going on. They're going to be able to help you. But then also working with the therapeutic journey massage practitioner to to for many different reasons, you know, as we just kind of covered, but yeah, if you're doing those exercises, making sure you do focus on the relaxation. Yes, okay, because a lot of that time it's, it's focusing on the, you know, the contraction, the engagement, but not the release, exactly. And that's being said over and over again, like, if I go to a yoga class or Pilates class, I hear non stop, engage, engage, Activate, Activate, yeah, that's why so many people that do Pilates have problems. So, yeah, so really focusing on relaxing, softening, using those words, softening, blossoming, imagining it sort of like melting, like butter with touch, you know, like I'm feeling that already, yeah, powerful, yeah, those words are powerful, yeah. We say it over and over again in a young massage, because you can feel it. And how much for me, like, how much my, just, what feels like my entire nervous system is connected to, yeah, you know, my pelvic floor and, like, my pussy. And when I do, like, oh yeah. Like, focus on that relaxation. That is relaxing totally because that's, yeah, that's going back to that flight response. It's ready. We're ready to run. But if we're relaxed, then we're like, oh okay, cool. The body is it's almost it's letting us know I'm safe. I don't need to run anywhere. I'm safe so you can actively be, you know, obviously other vagus nerve practices and things you can do that can help you to do that, sounding and different breathing practices. But, yeah, just blossoming, softening, opening the pelvic diaphragm is another way to let us know I am safe, I feel good and regulated. So those are some really great practices. You can use self massage tools to get a little bit deeper, like, internally and then like jaw, like releasing, relaxing the jaw. Doing jaw jaw massage. And even, like, in internally between the molars at the back, sort of right at the back, there's that the muscle that you can feel that's connected in with the jaw. So doing, like, like most of us can do this on our own bodies. And yeah, the jaw and the pelvis are interwoven, and I'll notice a lot of time if there's, if there's tension on one side of the jaw, tension on that side of the Yoni, wow. So really, yeah, really, taking that power into our own hands, and, yeah, being proactive with it, because, yeah, it is important if we're wanting to have yummy, healthy pelvic diaphragm to be mindful, because a lot of our conditioning has been sort of against that. You know, the closing of the legs, the shame, the tightening, activating, pushing through sex, and we don't want it. It's just because we're tired and just doing it anyway. You know, all of these things add up. You spoke about Yoni eggs earlier. Would you is that a tool you use or you teach on as well? Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone that has a hypertonic pelvic diaphragm, so they're struggling with tension and they're needing to more focus on massage, release, releasing and relaxing. That being said, it's not a definite no no. It could help with the biofeedback of being able to feel like, okay, I can feel the Yoni egg there. And it could also help with because what can happen when we start becoming aware of our pelvic diaphragm, we can start activating different areas and different muscles and softening different areas. And like just now, I just felt the muscles around my clitoral complex soften no and and so from like up to from the anus, all the way up around to the clitoral complex, all of those, all of those muscles, superficially and internally, we can become much more dexterous with it. And so with a Yoni egg, that can also help just bring that awareness in. But then outside of that, that sort of circumstance, if someone is suffering from too much tension. I think it's a really beautiful practice to do to kind of like, it's very kind of ritualistic. And, yeah, you can have, like, your little Yoni egg on an altar, and it can be a whole thing. And I find that that is and it feels like it can sometimes help to if we actually do it, instead of just sitting somewhere, collecting dust, it can help to bring in that practice that maybe we wouldn't do, because we have something to use, you know. So I think it's really awesome for that. It's really there are many beautiful practices you can do with it. And it's also nice to for to penetrate without, because what can happen when we're using the Yoni egg, it can sip in. The Yoni can sip in, you know, and you can feel that like that, without force or or um pushing. And so I feel like that's a really cool way to start having that as a habit or as a feedback. Of, like, Oh, that's a yes. Like, I'm feeling like the sipping in and yes, that's a really cool kind of, like, physical, visceral experience of, like, the Yoni egg just suddenly disappearing inside the Yoni, like, yeah. So I think that that's really beautiful in that, in that way, what are your thoughts on how long to wear an egg for? Because I felt lots, I've heard lots of different and I haven't studied the egg that deeply, yeah, but I've heard, like some people teach, you know, put an egg in and go through, go throughout your day. But then I've heard things around that, that being problematic, yeah, creating too much tension in the in the pelvic floor, yeah, I've had different teachers, so my jade egg teacher is like that, she'll do, she'll just kind of like, put it in in the morning and wear it all day, yeah? And I think, like most days, not all days, like, not while bleeding, maybe a break on the weekends, or maybe just a few days a week. Like, I remember it was very consistent with her, yeah. And then with obsidian egg, my obsidian obsidian egg teacher, it was a protocol over three months, okay? And it was three weeks of the month, one week off while bleeding. And it was a really, it was actually really intense. And I couldn't do that because obsidian is it was a really intense, okay, and it was specifically obsidian, yeah, okay, yeah, interesting. So there are only three eggs that I recommend that are like, really non. Porous. I think the rest are fine, if you make sure you, like, really, really clean them. Yeah. So I yeah, I like Jade, obsidian and Rose Quartz. Yeah, rose quartz and Jade seemed to be, like, interchangeable and but so I feel like, you know, with different I've also heard of people using it just a few hours here and there. Like, pop it in, do a practice, pop it in, yes, like, quite intentional, and not just leaving it in there. I do feel like maybe different people need different things at different times. So it's a very like, kind of, like, vague answer, but it's also kind of, I feel like a subjective experience and kind of unique to the person. So say they're experiencing like they're really needing to strengthen their Yoni muscles. It might be that doing that, like longer is going to help them faster. Yeah, whereas if someone's just wanting to have, like, stronger orgasms, so they they're doing the more kind of Kegel side of things. Yes, then it might just be, pop it in, do a couple of the practices, pop it out because it is, it is amazing, like it can really awaken the subtler sensations. Can feel more like alive, even like without it in. Afterwards, totally. I haven't used an egg in a while, but when I first started using them, like I would just put mine in and go about my day, and the amount of pleasure I would feel throughout my day was insane. And just that, like, I call it like mind pussy connection, like being able to, actually, you know, like you were talking about this neural pathways actually being like, Oh, this is what it feels like. This is this is this thing you're feeling inside of you is touching, you know, your vaginal walls and just like having my awareness be in that part of my body. So that was a hue that was a really big part of, Yeah, my pleasure journey to begin with, just for that like awareness and like mind body connection, totally. Yeah, I love you sharing that experience, because I do feel like it's so subjective and unique, but that is, like, I think, one of the most beneficial things that can come from it for people who aren't connected to their young so they can actually feel it, and if nothing else, like, that's amazing, yeah, but yeah. So I do feel like it's one of those things where it's like, feel into your yes, your No, like, what, what feels right for you, making sure that you're listening to that, listening to your body being very present and intentional, keeping it super clean. And then, like, also feeling the Yoni and feeling like, Oh, how did it? How does it feel before doing a practice versus after? How soft is it? How much can you relax it? Yeah. And then just sort of taking it day by day. That's what I would recommend for me. I can't use them super consistently for very long for different reasons. But when I was sort of learning, I had to sort of push my push my edges and push my limits and yeah, I think that they all had, like positive outcomes. Yeah, yeah, amazing. One more thing that I just want to you were speaking about the tools for the pelvic diaphragm. Would you also speak? Would you also say that, like, even just like the breath, like, awareness of the breath. I'm even just thinking in, whether it's, you know, someone touching their own body, or in partnered sexual experiences, and I'm just speaking from my own experience here too, like, just like that awareness of like, sending the breath down into my pussy space and pelvic bowl. They shifted so much for me because, like, where the breath goes, our awareness goes, and just being able to, like, oh, like, being able to blossom open with those exhales, yeah, totally Yeah. I i feel like so when I think I talked about it a little bit squatting and then placing your hands over if you can squat. Never safe for you. Not obviously, yeah, pregnant, but it Yeah, you breathing and feeling like actually feeling with your hand the breath move is amazing, like, amazing way to check in with your pelvic diaphragm. Okay, so just get in a squat position, hand cupping and then your knee breathing, okay, and just literally feeling just like, if you were to put your hands over your rib cage while you were breathing, it's the same thing, yeah, yeah, yeah, which can also even just be helpful, like, yeah, placing your hands over the lower rib cage and giving it give me a nice deep breath I can, yeah, sending, I, I, I also love that, like that your awareness going to where your attention, the breath is, and then that sort of energy flowing there. Yeah. Breath, definitely an amazing tool, breath, touch, sound, movement, using tools for bio feedback and just be like, okay, cool. I can feel that. I can feel that that. What that is. And then, you know, experimenting with squeezing, trying not to pee, experiment in squeezing, trying not to poop, experiment in trying to, like, see if you can lift up your clitoral hood by just squeezing, you know, like, not not saying that you can say, like, that's kind of like, you know, using that as an imagination. Imagine a public show with your clitoris, yeah, also looking like, having a look, yeah, having the look, even while, while having a climactic orgasm, and seeing the contractions and just making that connection of, like, Oh, cool. Like, that's what, that's what is happening. Like, those are my muscles. They're just so beautiful as well. And yummy, yeah. So it's a somatic, whole body adventure. You know, we're moving down from, like, the mind into the pussy, yes, yeah. Oh, I've loved this conversation. I would love you to share how people can find you, and then, especially because you have a whole lot of students all over the world, like you said, who offer yearning massage as well. So yeah, is if someone was wanting this or to find a certified practitioner, how do they find them? How do they find you? Tell us, tell us. I would say the easiest way would be to go to my website, yonilicious.com.au, and there's a tab that says, find a practitioner. Cool and so, yeah, you click on that. There's also a directory on the uni pleasure palace with so I have, so I have all of my certified practitioners on my page, on my website, yeah, but then on her website, there are certified practitioners from other people who have trained them. Okay, cool. They're including me was, but even more, okay, some of mine, not all of mine, some of mine have signed up to that directory. But then there are, there are others that I don't have. Okay, cool, those are two really good resources. There's also on my website, if you want to learn, like, if you're listening to this thing, like, I want to be able to do this, or you've had a Yoni massage, there's on my website, you can find that there. Think it's like, become a practitioner, or something like that, yeah, and then yeah. So there's like, a little drop down as well for if you're looking for a practitioner with the location and the the type of service, yeah and yeah. Again, makes like, please make sure your practitioner has done training. I wouldn't see a male body practitioner for therapeutic journey, massage, yeah, I would for like to get fingered. I would like love to see a practitioner, like a sex worker, essentially, to get fingered. Yeah, but then anywhere in between those two feels very murky, and I've heard horror stories, yes. And I love, what I loved about what you said too was, you know, my trainings in, you know, a tantric background. But I love that you'd spoken to like, the difference between, you know, an erotic massage or a tantric experience versus a therapeutic experience. They're very, very different. Yeah, super different. And, and, I mean, I am certain there would be a male body practitioner out there that's just like, you know, a Two Spirit person, or like a gender fluid person, or somebody who just can, like, maybe they're just like magic, and they can feel what it feels like to have a female body. But the like you can be, you can rest assured, knowing if your practitioner has a female body, and they know exactly what it feels like, emotionally, physically, psychologically, to have a Yoni Yes, and therefore they can hold a different kind of space for you, therapeutically, you know, yes, and that's, That's that's where the magic lies, you know, being able to to be witnessed in that so fully, to the, you know, the maximum extent. So, yes, yeah. And, I mean, maybe, you know, after you've had a session with somebody that is female bodied, and you've, like, worked through everything, like, I want to see what this is like from a dude, yeah, feeling like, super empowered, and like, Fuck yeah. Like, this is, this is, like, gonna be fun, you know, then, then it would be great. But in that initial, like, therapeutic, yeah, yeah, I don't recommend it, yeah, you know, obviously, everyone's free to do whatever they want, and they can learn, and they're on their journey. But I don't recommend it, yeah, yeah. And when does your so you train? When does, when does, when is your next training start? They're ongoing. Oh, cool. Okay, so someone can join whenever, yeah, jump in, okay, and it's all online, yeah. So the the sort of like, I guess, like, the curriculum is all online, and then we do in person and in person intensive. And then we do two months of supervision. So amazing, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's beautiful, very special. And I have somebody who help is helping me. She's trained up as a certified training provider, Liz Gorga, and she's just like, I don't know if I could still do it without her, so I'm very lucky, amazing. And then you also do your sex coaching, sex coaching certification. Yeah, is that someone can join whenever as well? With that, that one is all online, okay, cool. Online, amazing. And Eleanor, who I said we met through, and you know, our glorious podcast listeners know Eleanor Well, she did your sex coaching certification. Did she? Yeah? Exactly, cool, yeah, yeah, amazing. Well, thank you for being here. I love that. I can't wait to get a Yoni massage. Yeah, sometimes postpartum. What is your thoughts on? So good. Do you have you like? Yeah, offered uni massage for women postpartum as well. Yeah, not, not until six weeks after any final kind of surgery. So if anything happens after birth that some, some kind of surgery needs to happen, then six weeks from that date, or six weeks after birth, if it feels like a yes, but we could wait, you know, to six months whatever feels like right again. It's not like pushing it or forcing it, but self massage for any kind of if there's any scar tissue there as well, once it starts healing, is the best way to help, like, break all of that scar tissue up and get it feeling good again. That can that can lead to discomfort as well. So amazing, yeah. Essentially, six months after any kind of surgery, or, like, a collective abortion, or any, yeah, another question, very specific question, do you have, like, a favorite oil that you use especially that, yeah, yeah. So we at the training, we use coconut oil because it's you're only getting a Yoni massage or being practiced on once or twice. So it's okay, whereas with coconut oil, it can sometimes be problematic if used long term, just because of like pH and like that. Some people are allergic to coconut oil, so we use sweet almond oil. Okay, so we have those two options at the training, yeah, but then yeah, with with a lover, I've also used a blend of Sweet Almond and grape seed and or grape seed and coconut and coconut. Yeah? And those have been nice as well. So, okay, cool, yeah. And I've had, I know somebody who uses castor oil externally, oh yeah, yeah, which is cool, diluted, or just like the straight up stickiness, okay, yeah, sticky, yeah. It's so thick my skin does love castor oil, but it's very like, it's, yeah, super sticky, yeah, but she swears by it. She loves it so much. Okay, so those are sort of the main ones that I've used and experimented with, but yeah, there might be some others out there that might like, suit people better. Okay, cool, because I know for me, my pussy doesn't love coconut oil? Yeah, yeah. I know people don't Yeah, so I'm always Yeah, and I've used different intimacy oils, but I'm always so curious about what people love and what works. Yeah, it's a good question. Yeah, sweet almond oil seems to be okay. I'm gonna try. Yeah? Amazing. Okay, well, thank you for being here. Kiki, my pleasure. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it so much, and I'm gonna put all the team, will put all the links of Kiki's below. So anything that she spoke about that you want to go check out, just go check the notes wherever you're listening to this. And we love you and we'll see you soon. I'll probably have a baby in one of the one of the future podcasts, one of the next podcasts. We'll see you soon. Bye. Yo, yo, yo. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of sex, love and everything in between. Now, if you'd like to stay connected with Meg and I, you can head on over to Instagram and follow me at the Jacob O'Neal and where can people find you lover, at B dot, Meg, dot. O amazing. And yeah, guys, check out the show notes for all other information in regards to what we've got coming up. And yeah, we're super, super grateful that you guys for taking the time to listen in to this podcast. If you do have any topics or any questions like I said, hit us up on Instagram, and we'll see what we can do. Apart from that, have a beautiful, beautiful rest of your day. Thanks for being here. Big, big. Love you.