Ep 93: What is your Relationship Archetype w/ Rory Kilmartin

In this week’s episode of Sex, Love & Everything in Between, Jacob O’Neill invites relationship researcher Rory Kilmartin to dive deep into the hidden dynamics that drive conflict and connection in our relationships. If you’ve ever felt like you’re caught in the same arguments over and over again, it’s time to explore what might be going on beneath the surface.

Rory has spent over 30 years researching human relationships, uncovering the invisible forces that shape how we relate to others—and ourselves. He’s turned one of life’s great mysteries into a body of knowledge that few have even come close to understanding. Through his years of conversations, interviews, and study with elders from around the world, Rory has decoded why good people sometimes create difficult dynamics—and how to finally make sense of it all.

Could your archetypal nature be dictating your relationship struggles? Rory’s groundbreaking work invites you to discover which archetype you unconsciously embody, and how this shapes your behavior in ways you may not even realize. Find out how knowing your archetype can transform your most important relationships.

🔥 Key points they riff on:

•How uncovering your archetype can explain every argument you’ve ever had

•Why understanding these hidden dynamics leads to instant clarity and harmony

•The difference between reacting from survival vs. responding from maturity

•Why you think you’re being loving—but your partner perceives the opposite

•Moving from confusion to clarity in all your relationships, from romance to family

Rory’s work isn’t just another relationship theory—it’s a practical guide to transforming the way you understand and engage with others. If you’re ready to break free from old patterns, this episode is for you.

🔥 Love this episode? Don’t forget to subscribe and share your thoughts in a review. We love hearing from our listeners!

🔥 Let’s stay connected:

•Follow Meg: @the.meg.o

•Follow Jacob: @thejacoboneill

🔥 Connect with Rory:
• Visit Archetypal Relationships: https://archetypalrelationships.com/

• Take the free archetypal quiz here: https://archetypalrelationships.com/quiz
• Email info@rorykilmartin.com to book a call with Rory's team and learn more about their programs, mentioning this podcast for a special deal.
• Go to www.AR-calendar.com to schedule a call with Rory's team, again mentioning this podcast.

🔥 Want more?

•Heed the call and join The Gathering of Men: https://www.theembodiedmaninstitute.com/tgom-2024 

•Explore our relationship resources: www.meg-oneill.com/relationship-freebie

Jacob & Meg also coach individuals and couples—slide into their DMs for more info!

Transcript

Unknown: 1:52

It's the most loving thing you can do for yourself and the people you love is render yourself more conscious. Archetypal wisdom, for me, is the number one route to render yourself more conscious in relationship to yourself and others.

Jacob O'Neill: 2:14

Yo, yo, yo. Lovers. Welcome, welcome. Welcome to sex, love and everything in between where the O'Neills you're here with Megan Jacob,

Meg O'Neill: 2:22

and this is the place we have really uncensored conversations about sex, intimacy and relationships. We're super excited you're here. Enjoy this episode. You

Unknown: 2:33

Hey,

Jacob O'Neill: 2:38

lovers, welcome back to sex, love and everything in between. We've moved the studio out to the garage, and we've got it all set up here, because baby is on the way. Still not here yet, any day now, but today I've got a really awesome man in the studio with me. He's a brother that I met at a men's retreat over a year ago. Now it'd probably be just over a year. And following on from that, we had a few conversations. I then went and did a quiz that he has through his body of work, archetypal relationships, which really blew my mind. And then from there, I went and did his five day training. And from that training, what I found was that I understood myself better, I understood my partner better, I understood our relationship better, and I was able to make some really significant, subtle changes in our relationship dynamic that really just dissolved some of the challenges we were having, and that, For me, was like mind blowing. And for someone who has struggled with trying to read all the information and get it all into my head and then implement it, this was a really, really beautiful structure and framework that allowed me to make changes that I didn't even know I could make. So I've got Rory cool Martin here. Thanks for being here, bro,

Unknown: 3:54

thank you so much for inviting me. I'm thrilled to be here. Awesome

Jacob O'Neill: 3:58

man. Tell me about so archetypal relationships. Is your body of work. Can you give us a little rundown on where it came from, why it's so powerful, and how you deliver it to the world?

Unknown: 4:09

Yes, my body of work. I'm a relationship researcher. I've been my first thought about figuring out human relationships, I was 12 years old, and I've never stopped. So I just turned 50, so 38 years now, I've been fascinated with discovering the information that actually makes a difference. Because you may have noticed there's an enormous amount of information out there that actually makes people slightly more confused, is superficial in nature and doesn't really help. And not that everyone's not well meaning, but there's a big difference between the information that actually makes a difference and the information that sounds good. And I realized only in the last few years that that's what I've been doing, and then 18 years ago, having spent a lot of time figuring a lot out, I realized that I was still missing major pieces of the puzzle. And then around the age of 32 I started a research project into what I first called the survival archetypes. I was studying breakdowns, and I began to observe the the repeating observable patterns that are different in humans. And because I was studying breakdowns, I was interested in our triggered and imbalanced and reactive behavior. And I discovered what I now call the four, either relationship archetypes or survival archetypes.

Jacob O'Neill: 5:35

Yeah, I like what you said around the survival archetypes, because that's what I understand when it comes to, like, when I'm triggered or I'm reactive, it's a part of me that wants to, like, I'm in a survival I'm in an activated or my nervous system is like, fight or flight. It's like, I have to there's a part of me that believes this is life or death, and it can be really confronting for me, especially with the baby coming. I've seen parts of myself that are reactive, that I haven't seen for a while, and it's like when there's a life event that is occurring in our relationship, a major life event, like having a baby, or when we got married, or we even if we go on a holiday, it's so crazy to see what little things can actually I can react to that I wasn't aware of. And it's really a survival. It's a part of me that wants to, I don't know if this is the way that you see it, but for me, it's like I'm trying to keep myself safe from feeling something exactly.

Unknown: 6:31

And this is the human condition. I mean, you have to be a spectacularly uniquely raised human to not have a version of what you just described. So let's go right back to the basics. We're all born if we're human, we're born human, right? So we all look like humans, right? As opposed to a donkey or a dog or a sloth. Earth, right? We all look like humans, and we all think that we run the same human operating system, and that's the first misdirection. What's much more accurate is to recognize that over the last 200 to two 50 million years, as mammals have evolved on Earth, we as mammals have slowly evolved to the point that we are, and there are four very observable aspects of the human psyche. They're also in animals and horses and dogs and other animals, but I don't go down that path. So it's almost like a mammalian aspects of the operating system. But in humans, they're very observable, and there's four different, very clearly different aspects of the psyche. So we are born with a strong, innate leaning in that direction, like 10% of us are left footed or left handed. We're 5050, biological male and female for the purpose of procreation, about 1% of us have traits of psychopathy. Nature apparently knows best, but we are born with a strong leaning into one of these archetypal realms, and it shapes everything about our lives. So what happens then is when circumstances arise that occur like they are anti our archetypal nature, or the agenda of each of these archetypal realms that occurs as very stressful for our nervous system, and then we try and survive those circumstances.

Jacob O'Neill: 8:36

I take it personally very much. So when someone does something that doesn't fit my agenda, yeah,

Unknown: 8:42

yeah. So to go back then. So when we're children, and let's say we're born, someone's born a gentle child. I'm a gentle man. I'm a gentle person. I've always been gentle. I care about connection. I care about kindness. I don't I feel very uncomfortable if somebody around me is their emotions aren't being respected or aware of. So the gentle people care about emotional safety and emotional well being. The wolf warrior types care about people's physical safety, external world safety, but let's say a gentle child is raised in a home where there's some heat and volume and slightly bullying energy that's very traumatic for the gentle nervous system, and then they have to survive that. And how a gentle person survives that kind of dominant bullying energy is they appease and placate and spend all their time worried about that person's mental well being than their own. And then we internalize these survival responses. And just to blow your mind, all of these survival responses are already pre coded in the psyche. So that's part of the archetypal realm. We then internalize those and think this is how we succeed in life. This is how we win in life. Anytime any behavior like this occurs, we behave like this, and we will survive and win. And when you're five or seven or 12, that kind of makes sense. But when you're 47 and 54 and all the numbers in between, it's dysfunctional. It leads to a dysfunctional life.

Jacob O'Neill: 10:31

What you you sort of the Gen gentle child that is, I'm almost, like, seeing a part of me, or like, I'm looking back on my childhood, and like, yeah, the way that I would succeed in life was to control other or, like, manage other people's emotional states, super vigilant in that. And I would be very, very aware of what other people were feeling. And if someone wasn't feeling good, I would do whatever I could to return them to a point of, like, neutrality or happiness. And I took that on as, like my that was my role to play, and that was what actually allowed me to feel safe, exactly.

Unknown: 11:12

And so yeah, exactly the same for me. When a when a when a young child is impacted by the changing mood of a volcanic person, someone that's easily angry, easily raises the volume, easily expresses frustration, the gentle child will dedicate their lives to managing the mood of the adult. Yeah, yeah, and then they'll do that for the rest of their lives with other humans around them so they never really quite live their lives.

Jacob O'Neill: 11:42

Hmm, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's been a big theme in my life, massively, and it's been. And a constant, yeah, even having a child coming into the world, it's, it's really I've had such confronting feelings of like, How do I look after how do I make sure this thing never, ever experiences pain or suffering or it. There's a part of me, even when someone else is going through something that I know they need to go through, that I want to save them from there is a there isn't discomfort in my body. I'm now aware of it, and I can hold my my center and not engage and just trust or regulate myself. But I know that in those moments, there is a part of me that's uncomfortable with someone else's

Unknown: 12:29

emotional process. Yes, yeah, because you're the kind of person that not only cares about people's emotional well being, but probably also their physical well being. Yeah, definitely. And as you're becoming a father, this is going to kick in whole new levels, whole new levels of wanting to go to war with anyone that might put you and your loved ones, your loved ones in particular are harm and so this is super interesting then. So we have these four aspects of the human psyche. So what are the other ones who come the gentle folk like myself and many others. We care about people's emotional safety. We care about people not being mistreated or etc, and the gentle people typically don't like conflict, don't like having difficult conversations. Would rather sweep it under the carpet and hope it dissolves and just stay connected. The exact opposite of that I call so I call the gentle folk the sheep, right? Because they have big, fluffy coats. They like flocking together. They don't bark or growl or have claws. They don't really have any offensive weapons. The only weapon they have is turning away and turning off love, which is exactly what the gentle folk do. They disconnect, and they have little passive aggressive, which is basically conveying disapproval without speaking. Because if I spoke up, you might not like me, but I want you to know that you've disappointed me, and then you'll apologize, and then I'll reconnect when I'm ready. Is really the only thing that the the the annoyed or offended sheep is familiar in any way, shape or

Jacob O'Neill: 14:10

form. That is literally Meg. Meg will say this too. She's like, you are open, open, open, open, open, and then all of a sudden, you close, and you're unopenable. I just shut down, yeah? And it's like, you need to now understand that you've done something wrong and that I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm upset. And until you figure that out and apologize for what it is, I will not, I will not give love.

Unknown: 14:32

It's the only weapon the gentle folk have is turning off love. Now, what's the total opposite of that? So the gentle people feel a version of, if I speak up and express my disapproval, I will die. On some level, there's going to be an exit so the child doesn't recognize the difference in a biological death and an existential death. They just think they're going to die. Then we internalize that, and here we are, decades later, and we're still not speaking up to the adult or the person, because we feel like we're going to die. Now the total opposite of that are the wolf wolves and wolf cubs. Right? The wolf cub typically observes in their childhood, weakness, being mistreated, gentle parents being abused or mistreated or untreated, unfairly. And this makes the wolf very the wolf cub very uncomfortable, like, weakness is bad, timidity is bad. I've got to make everybody stronger, and I've got to speak up. So the wolf cub thinks if I don't speak up, not only might I die, but other people might get hurt. And to the natural wolf warrior, if anybody gets hurt on their watch, it's actually a fate worse than death. So they have to speak up, and they are going to be direct, and they're going to express their issues and frustrations bluntly, because that's how they're wide if I don't say this, I can't relax all evening. The total opposite. Now the brain meld is wolves and sheep marry all the time, but they're underlying architect, archetypal communication system is completely opposite.

Jacob O'Neill: 16:21

Yes,

Unknown: 16:24

this is a problem. This poses issues.

Jacob O'Neill: 16:28

Is it because, like, the gentle sheep think that they've married it. They're like, Oh, this person's a sheep as well. And the Wolf's like, that's a wolf as well. Is it because we were unaware that we have those different operating systems and we just assume that we're both the same a lot of the time?

Unknown: 16:43

Yes. So here's a big piece of the puzzle, our archetypal agenda and nature is so absolute in a. Our in our being. I don't have words to describe it. It's the entire paradigm, every fiber of our being, every neuron. I don't know how to describe it, enough to convey it's the absolute way we see the world. So for example, the gentle person thinks that all anger is bad if you express irritation, frustration or cross energy, it's really bad because it's violating emotional well being, essentially the gentle person thinks this is a committed, intentional, purposeful violation of my soul, just expressing a little whiff of irritation in the kitchen because you're in the way and I'm trying to put plates away. That's how sensitive the gentle folk are now, the wolves, the wolf cubs, they're like, I have to express irritation. It's how I convey things are important to me. It's how I keep you safe. Like, don't leave the gate open. Okay, good. Now we've cleared that up. You're not going to leave the gate open. Gate being the front door. There's a dog, there's a child. We don't leave the gate open, but if somebody repeatedly leaves the gate open, you have to express that clearly and directly, because that's normal communication for a wolf. That's how we keep everybody safe. Hey, pick up your gun. We're going to war. Like, don't leave your gun. Change your shoes. Like, you've got to be direct, right? We're at war on some level, right? And these two worlds collide. But the point, sorry, is that we project that archetypal world onto all humans, the gentle folk project, any ungentle language or behavior is evil. Onto all humans. Wolves project, if you're weak or timid or sloppy or you're not switched on, you're not paying attention, and you leave the gate open, which is a metaphor for for allowing any form of danger. You are the problem, and I will address you, and that's my highest form of love. So the highest form of love for a gentle person is never expressing anger, irritation or cross energy, being constantly forgiving, understanding and accepting. The highest form of love for the wolf warrior realm is to tell you where you're being weak and to help you get stronger. That's really interesting. And these people marry all the time. Yes, yes. They marry all the time.

Jacob O'Neill: 19:24

Is there a reason that they marry? Is there like a why those two? I mean polarity, maybe. But what is the attraction piece? Yeah,

Unknown: 19:33

it's like, how many podcasts do we have?

Jacob O'Neill: 19:36

We'll do a 10 part series of this.

Unknown: 19:40

Attraction is a really interesting subject, because attraction is apart from really obvious reasons. It's almost involuntary and it's not a conscious choice. So often people are attracted to people. There's different types of attraction, right? But the attraction I'm talking about is I want to bond with you for life, merge all my finances, have children, raise children, which is a spectacularly difficult thing to do, climb mountains together, and I want to align myself with you for the rest of my life. Okay, that doesn't happen very often, and there's mechanisms going on. So from an archetypal perspective, the wolf realm sees a gentle person. And again, this has got nothing to do with gender, and they see someone they can protect for life, and they get to express their archetypal agenda for life, the person that wants to protect somebody and keep them safe is not quite so attracted to somebody that does not need protecting. It doesn't have that same opportunity. Yes, the gentle person is like you don't understand betting, I'm going to make your life soft and exquisite and comfortable. I'm going to feed you delicious food and make your life glorious. You're going to experience bliss with me, and I get to express love into your world, because it doesn't come so naturally for you. And then two people get together, and it's like they get to express their archetypal agenda for life. What could possibly go wrong? Well, these two agendas are often completely oppositional,

Jacob O'Neill: 21:26

and I'm assuming that they work until they don't. Is that how it works? It's like? Is it like maybe that protection in the beginning feels nice, or maybe that soft bedding and the nourishing meals feels nice

Unknown: 21:39

during those opening months, those expressions in each other's lives feel fabulous. Yes, the honeymoon period is defined in many ways. The best way is all the biochemicals that we get flooded by, especially. Phenolphthalamine, which is the big one, and oxytocin, but they it also we feel good because this energy that we're not naturally have a natural affinity to is present in our lives. And that's all fine while the biochemicals are running, but as soon as that passes and we're back to the various missions of our lives, the differences show up. Yes, they show up because they're oppositional.

Jacob O'Neill: 22:26

Yeah, been there, and we'll continue to meet those parts, no doubt, as we go into this next season with with children in our life, or the child in our lives. What's what's next? What? Where do we want to go? Do we want to talk about the other archetypes? Or, do you want to talk about how potentially these two archetypes can, uh, the opposing agendas, actually move through that and find solutions? Or what would what do you feel is next? Let's

Unknown: 22:51

talk about the other two first. Let's do that just for the viewers. The wolves and the sheep are naturally attracted to each other. The wolves take care of physical safety, external world safety. They want to be on a mission. They want to get things done, move things forward. The sheep are the gentle people. They take care of internal world safety, emotional safety, and they want people to slow down and drop out of their spreadsheets and come into bliss and kindness and oxytocin. So the other two I call the gorilla and the fox, and they are in my diagram like the north and the south. So the gorilla is the survival archetype of the sovereign realm. And they are also in the external world. So they care about details, planning the future. Gorillas wake up and think about the future. Yes, when do we need to do the tax when we got a rejo the car? When do I need to get the shopping in? How much milk is left in the face like this? The details? Yes, to make life work for who, for everyone they care about everyone the foxes want to live in. The moment the foxes are in the internal world the sheep and the foxes. Two of the archetypal natures care about the internal world experience of humans. Two of the archetypes care about the external world of humans. So the gorillas and the wolves care about external world. The gorillas care about the integrity of systems going into the future and workability. Yes, wolves care about the integrity of people. They're like the bouncers. Throughout history, they've been at the edge of the village checking, are you a con man? You're a snake or a salesman? You're Viking, a snake or a bear? Yes, and I'm gonna lay down my life to protect the innocent in the village, because that's how I'm wired. Yes, that's it. So they're the external world. Natures, the foxes care about ideas. They live in the cathedrals of the ether, all the great inventions and ideas and art and poetry and architecture and innovation and inventions come from ideas, very much. The Fox world, art, music, culture, architecture, the whole thing, and that's the world they want to live in and to live in that world. You're not in the future. You're not in a to do list. You're not thinking about when I've got to submit my tax return where there is no time. Yep, they, they foxes. Want to live in a timeless world filled with wonder and thoughts and ideas. Gorillas and foxes marry all the time. I was on a I was speaking on a cruise recently, I was invited to speak on a private cruise. There was 35 people. There were five partners, five couples on the cruise, all four of them, all five of them, were gorilla Fox couples. And it dawned on them at the end of the first part of my Two Day talk, they were like, Rory, we're all in a relationship together. They were sitting in what I call a quadrant, facing each other, and all of our partners are over there. I was wondering how long it was going to take for you to notice that. So I hope I'll see you tomorrow, because that was the end of my time. Gorillas and foxes marry a lot, a lot. Wolves and sheep marry a lot, a lot. It's not absolute, it's the vast majority of the time we don't marry our own Archetypal nature. More often than not, we marry our opposite. There's many reasons from an attraction reason we often form long term pair bonding with our with our opposite archetype, because we contribute these pieces into each other's lives. The other reason is we often attract somebody that represents the caregiver or parent that. Struggled with the most. Why? Why? Why? Because maturation is the prime directive of life itself. You could argue, after procreation, fine replication in nature, but we're here. What's the prime directive? Growing up? Yeah, maturing. So there's some developmental agenda that is, we often are in relationship with somebody that is not the same archetype as us.

Jacob O'Neill: 27:26

Yeah. One of the things that Meg and I say is like our relationship is like, where is like, is our greatest spiritual practice. It's where we where most of the growth occurs. We go and do the we sit in ceremony, we go into a workshop personal development. But it always comes back to like the actual, real life application in the moments in our relationship where we feel the greatest growth occurs unless, and that is because we are opposite. We are we are in that, like you said, the the opposites marry like that's very much what Meg and I have done. We've attracted each other for whatever reason, her being this, me being this, and then we've come together. And through the last 10 years, it's 10 years in. It's been 10 years since we've been together, actually this this month, and we've experienced time and time again this maturation, or this evolution of our relationship, where we thought we'd gotten to the point where, like, okay, cool, this is it, and then another layer will reveal itself, and then another layer, and that's been an ongoing practice for us. And do you feel that people get to a certain point and they just, they just exist alongside each other, like with marriages? Or is it that they get to a certain point that's like, Okay, this is when divorce happens, or is there a specific kind of, I guess, sequence that occurs?

Unknown: 28:50

There's a number of observable patterns. Yeah. Let's point out the obvious one, sometimes people just marry the wrong person. Yes, is that there's no more developmental value. Yes, it's you just married the wrong person complete, yeah, and it's okay. And let's try and resolve this with as little pain and suffering as possible. But let's assume we're talking about the category of people that would really like it to work. They believe they're with the right person, and they're experiencing unexplainable breakdowns. It's painful, but nobody wants to leave.

Jacob O'Neill: 29:28

There's a willingness, absolute

Unknown: 29:30

willingness, there's no desire to leave. The desire is actually to make sense of what's going on. Yes, archetypal wisdom, which is my term of affection for the body of knowledge that I discovered, is for me, the best information in the world. I've never found or discovered anything that comes close to explaining why kind well meaning, benevolent people take each other into hell, because kind well meaning, intentioned people don't wake up thinking right over the next five years, I'm going to take us both into hell. That's not the plan, but it so often happens. And look, explaining why unpleasant people create unpleasant experiences is not challenging. That's not the great challenge of relationship researchers like myself. Then the number one problem that the best researchers are attempting to solve is to provide a coherent, easy to understand answer as to why good, kind people suffer so much because that if you can answer that question, well, you can help a lot of people Yes, And that's what archetypal wisdom and archetypal relationships, for me, is the best, the number one body of knowledge to answer that question.

Jacob O'Neill: 30:59

It was really cool. On the five day training, there were a couple of couples on the calls, and it was really cool to see the almost like the light bulb moments when that when you'd explain something, and they'd both be like, Look at each other and be like, ah, yeah. And what I felt when I was in that space with with the other people on your training, was like, everyone had that, that there was a well meaning intent, there was a we want this to work, and we're coming up against things that we don't understand, or that where there's so much, there's an information overload from Google in the internet and all of these different ways, shapes and quick fixes that are being sold to us, but really, what we're looking for is a deeper understanding of what's going on, so we can move through it, not to get over it as quickly as possible, but so we can actually. Uh, for me, it's about, how can we actually, like, find a framework that allows us to understand ourselves, understand our partners, and then create harmony Exactly? And that's, that's it's so easy to think, Oh, I've got to fix this problem. But the thing is that life is going to present you with challenges ongoing. Those challenges don't just stop all of a sudden. Well, for me, they haven't. And what I understand is like, if I have the right frameworks and tools and the right practices, then I can continually relate with life and work towards like, a harmonious experience and alignment, I guess is what I'm always I'm like, How far out of alignment am I? And what, what needs harmonizing and having the right framework is, is so important?

Unknown: 32:43

Yeah, very good. So let's build on a comment that we made earlier, which is this attempting to express the degree to which is this the absolute world view of born by our archetypal nature, and to make sure I remember my point. But just so we're clear, no autopsy in human history has ever written down, oh, we found their archetypal nature, and it was this, yes, it's just invisible. It's not in language. You can't find it in the autopsy, you can't find it like you can't find the operating system of an iPhone. It's like, it's not there. You can't see it. It doesn't explain itself. You can see the apps that it runs. Yes, like meaning, we can see the beliefs and opinions of the human we can see those. You can ask someone to write down, what do you value? Value? I don't like chain smoking. I don't like racism. I like sport. You can those are like the apps on a phone, right? You can write down the stuff, you know, but our archetypal nature is in the invisible world, and it has no language, just like an operating system of a phone. So I want to make sure I don't lose that point. To build on that point. It's our absolute worldview. Okay, each of those archetypal natures has like a survival toolbox, and it's a specific set of tools that are preprogrammed into the operating system. So let's take the so gorillas, for example, their toolbox is when people are not following the plan, when they're not like cooperating. They become they lose their sense of humor. They get very direct. They start being slightly bossy, and tell people what to do and and very insistent.

Jacob O'Neill: 34:24

What kind of careers do the gorillas sort of lean toward leaders?

Unknown: 34:28

Leadership, yeah, CEOs accountants, because there's detail, yeah, financial accountants, corporate accountants, stuff like that. And parents, mothers, yeah, and because you have to deal with all the details. Quick story. You like this one I once worked with a client. His wife said, on the way, has he got to get some nappies? He goes, Yeah, I've got it, I've got it, I've got it. Came home with no nappies. Shops are closed, and she's like, you're in charge tonight. He's fine, fine, fine. And of course, at 2am it was the proverbial shit show. Yeah, no nappies, and it's everywhere, and he's on his hands and knees at 2am learning a very valuable lesson. When your wife says you've got to bring something home, it's best if you bring it home. So he finally got to the value of that. But here's the thing, we have this toolbox, and that's the only toolbox we have as we go through our lives. So back to your point. It's like when two different archetypal natures are jarring. Each goes to the only toolbox they've got. Over and over, it's the same fight different day. Yes, it's always the same fight, okay, 99.9 I don't like absolutes, pretty much, pretty much, nearly always the same fight different day, and what's the fight? It's two different archetypal natures creating friction, using the same survival toolbox and doubling down like you look around like maybe there's another thing I could do. No, I'll just, I'll really use this tool better today than I've done for the last 30 years. And maybe, maybe this time, if I disconnect and don't express my disapproval and sulk, maybe this time my sulking will actually make you want to apologize and reconnect with me or the other one, for those that are recognize themselves as sheep or gentle folk, imaginary role play conversations. This is the world of the sheep, because they don't want to speak up, because then somebody might not like me. So they role play these imaginary conversations for hours, often every day and the. Joke is, you know, maybe next year, you'll get these imaginary role play conversations just right, and everything will start working, because that's the only tools in the toolbox, and here we are, decades later, attempting to navigate our lives with the same tools that we found as a very upset, scared child,

Jacob O'Neill: 37:20

over and over and over and over and over and over again, and

Unknown: 37:26

the people that we love the most have to endure this recurring cycle of dysfunctional attempts

Jacob O'Neill: 37:36

Is this, like, obviously, you said like before, that's where, you know, sometimes it's just the wrong person, sometimes, other times, there's people who are willing to work on it. But from what I've also seen, I've seen people that just literally endure suffering it becomes almost like the relationship becomes a stalemate, in a way. And I've seen this in certain family members, not going to name any names, but I've seen this in different dynamics, relationships with people that have been together 3040, 50 years, and it sort of gets to a point where it's like a stalemate, and they're like, Well, this is as far as we get. This is as much this. We're just going to kind of exist alongside each other. And

Unknown: 38:16

yeah, sadly, one of the optimum strategies for long term success is lowering your expectations all the way down to the absolute minimum acceptable. Yes, that's no strategy for me that's not appealing, that doesn't appeal to me at all. So a big part of the problem with these archetypal natures is that whilst they express our absolute gift to the world, they also come with an Achilles heel, yes, and we become What's the expression we dig our entrenched become entrenched and stuck, because so many expressions of someone's behavior that is inconsistent with our agenda leaves us feeling absolutely helpless And there's nothing to be done. So it's absolute apathy, resignation and entrenchment. Yes, so you know, not to brag. People come and do this work who've been in relationships for decades, often they've been fighting, sometimes daily, for years, and they stop fighting overnight, because archetypal wisdom explains every fight you've ever had inside two hours, a couple of hours, just to lay out some fundamentals, and then people are like, you've explained every fight we've ever had. It's not even lunch on day one. Yep. Yeah. Archetypal wisdom is fundamental information, which means it's true and accurate all the time for all people, like gravity and the electromagnetic spectrum and other things that it doesn't care about your opinion. It just is the way it is. And the beauty of it is nobody has to believe what I say. I lay it out to groups. I always work with groups of people, because then the group responds with the accuracy of it. So very quickly, all the gorillas get together, oh, yeah, that's exactly how we feel. Yep, exactly. And all the foxes are like, you ain't telling me what to do. No one's telling us what. Nope, no one's gonna tell us what to do. And all the gorillas are looking at the box like, Oh, I'm trying to tell foxes What do. Foxes will not be told what to do ever. No,

Jacob O'Neill: 40:38

yes, they don't. They won't be told what to do.

Unknown: 40:41

And gorillas like telling people what to

Jacob O'Neill: 40:44

do. Fox's authority, like, get out of here. Because,

Unknown: 40:49

from an architect, from an evolutionary perspective, foxes, there's an aspect of the human psyche that had to stand for freedom, and that's what they stand for. And the most imbalanced expression of the guerrilla sovereign realm is the tyrant. So there must be an opposing energy, yes, to rebel?

Jacob O'Neill: 41:15

Am I? Much brains exploded. Yeah, the I just want to, like, yeah, the fox is like, so alive in me. When someone tells me what to do, like, I'm just like, you'll I would rather die. Yeah, I would rather die than submit to your rule. And it doesn't even matter if sometimes what you're asking of me is is even rational. There's still a part of me. It's like I will even in this is an example in our relationship, like I'll have something planned to do, and Meg will come in and tell me, remind me to do it, and I'll instantly want the desire, the desire completely dissolved, and I'm not going to do it now. Yeah, and I get, I and I get agitated, and I'm like, How dare you even, uh, yeah, I get, I get frustrated at any form of authority telling me what to do or forcing me to do. So I feel it's a force, or I feel, if any time I feel obligated, my entire motivation, any momentum that I've created, like not doing it instantly stall. Is there a way that you could explain, maybe a dynamic that is playing out in a relationship, and then how they could shift that? Like a little example,

Unknown: 42:27

possibly, let me first say that you and roughly 25% of all humans experience what you just said. It's deeply entrenched in the psyche. It's not childish protest like this is so observable that it is an aspect of the human condition. However, is that going to be good for raising a child with the love of your life?

Jacob O'Neill: 43:00

No, no, good,

Unknown: 43:02

good. That's the right answer. Yeah, it's just not. So what we can say is like, okay, so we can explain that this aspect of the psyche is literally been formed over millions of years of evolution to the point that we are where we are, and protecting and standing for freedom is that important to nature and the fox realm is the is the guardian of freedom, which means, even when the love of my Life tells me something that's in my best interests. I have a very negative reaction to that, even though it's well meaning. She loves me, it's good for me, it's going to move life forwards. And she's just doing it to remind me, that's how deep this goes.

Jacob O'Neill: 43:49

And I would I would say that I'm getting I would argue I'm I'm more aware, and I'm getting better at it, and sometimes it's more just, hey lover, thank you for reminding me. I can feel a part of me that doesn't want to do it, but that's just my that's just part of that's just the part of me that was like, I don't want to be told what to do. Yeah, thank you for reminding me. And like, there's been so many moments more and more where we've been able. And a big part of that five day course was more just about like, actually speaking what's going on. Like, gave me the ability to speak about what's going on inside of me, when the reminder comes through from from Meg, or when there's a directive from her that I'm like, Oh no, don't want to do that. Yep, and it's been really super powerful. Okay,

Unknown: 44:35

to keep it on a personal theme for a moment. So often when mothers, when women become mothers, whether they have a gorilla nature in them or not, Gorilla urges rise up. It's natural, because mothers have to address the details. They have to know when the nap time is, when the next food is, when was the food, when's someone coming home, what bed needs to be changed? Like, like, it's about, you know, this idea that mothers can, this idea of multitasking or holding multiple things in their minds, but the ability to plan like they know how many nappies are in the house they should do that's that's important, right? So what I'm saying is that you're likely to have more of what we would say are like gorilla energy or gorilla style communications. And raising children is stressful for a number of reasons, your capacity to interpret those communications in a non Fox way could be the difference,

Jacob O'Neill: 45:42

yes, yes, because

Unknown: 45:46

it's in you to naturally stand for Freedom. And there's times when that's really appropriate, right? When somebody walks into, let's say what we're doing today. Let's say somebody walked in and started telling us what to do, it's like, no, no, we know what we're doing. Please stand out, for example, right? That's when it's appropriate. But when somebody say some says something that's absolutely in everyone's best interest, and we can't cope with that that's an upset child, so we want to do less of

Jacob O'Neill: 46:17

that. Yes,

Unknown: 46:19

yeah, and this, of course, is why archetypal wisdom and the work we do at archetypal relationships is so transformational and so life changing, because we basically help people move from their survival, archetypal reactions and triggers and upset child behaviors to the mature, balanced expression, like the journey from Fox to magician, the journey from sheep immature, imbalanced sheep reactions to mature. Balanced lover, the journey from immature, wolfy outbursts to mature warrior. And finally, the journey from easily bossy guerrilla energy to mature, balanced sovereign. That journey is not easy. It's not obvious. If it was obvious, everyone would be doing it. Yeah, it would be easy. And part of it is that journey is hidden from us. The answers are hidden. They are incredibly difficult to find, and I don't have time to explain why, yeah, but the work we do is help people navigate that journey from a lifetime of easily triggered, highly reactive, ineffective survival behavior to a lifetime of mature balance centered mature reactions, unafraid, unapologetic and very difficult to offend an elder and and the circle, and we interpret all the circumstances better, and this is the journey. So I think of myself as a recovering sheep, a recovering sheep Fox. And this journey to mature lover, mature magician, is the journey of our lives. But it's incredibly difficult. It's because it's hidden. It's hidden,

Jacob O'Neill: 48:16

yeah, yeah. And I feel it's almost like, yeah. Like, the awareness is the first step is, like, what I took from the quiz and then the five day training was, I'm now aware of this. Like, I can't unaware this. What's the opera? How do I get really, like, it's a so once I'm aware of it, I now can do something, but I can't go back. And I think this is like, what you said about the if you are in a relationship, or if you're in a dynamic where you are butting heads, or you're looping and you're experiencing the same thing over and over again, the first step is becoming aware. And that's what I really found, was like, Oh, this awareness gives me the ability, or the it gives you the hope. It's like, oh, there is a way. Totally, there is a way. And I think for a lot of people in relationships that love their partner but are struggling with these dynamics or this reactive behavior from both sides, when you become aware of something that gives you hope, you're then able to start that journey from immature into a more mature

Unknown: 49:21

state, yeah, because then your life is better. It's like it's not complicated. It's just everything's better. Everything's better when we don't react as an upset child, everything's better, yes. Couple of quick stories. I could tell you hundreds of stories. One just came to my mind. A man recently came and did the five day training, and then came and did the revelation program, which is our first eight week program. And he said, afterwards, he said, I've been married 41 years. He was 61 I've been married 41 years. Everyone in my community. Community knows me as my wife. Is the we have an exceptional relationship. It was just straight up about it. He said, I wish I had known this 41 years ago. It would have saved me so much. And this is the guy that's nailed it, nailed it. And there's so many stories of people I work with, a lot of people, interestingly, that have been searching for answers for decades, studied psychotherapy, studied counseling, done these communication courses, got these diplomas like and they're still searching, read every relationship but worth reading for 30 years. And they come and find this and it, I don't like saying it unifies everything, but it kind of fills in a lot of the gaps.

Jacob O'Neill: 50:41

And I also want to speak into that as like archetypes, for me, has always been a men's work thing. It hasn't been a relationship thing as such, King, Warrior, magician, lover. I'm sure, if there are any men listening, you've more than likely read that the Way of the Superior Man. You've more than likely read that a lot of these things are really, for me, have been, like, male focused, yeah, and to bring it into a dynamic where, like, the especially if you're in a male female relationship, and we're just going to focus on on that right now, is, like, if you're in that those archetypes, it's almost like, Oh, I'll go do that with the men, and I don't know, and I can bring that to my relationship, but it doesn't go into the relationship dynamics as such, where we can both understand the archetypal agendas that we have and be able to learn how to meet each other in a more harmonious, mature way. So what I feel too man is like, I've I love archetypes, and I've been deep in the archetypal world from a men's work perspective, doing the retreats and helping men understand their their shadows and how to step more into their power. But then what you bring with with your body of work is this weaving, or, like you said, this uniform. Buying that I found was like, Oh, I can now actually my partner and I can actually start to understand ourselves better and have something that really like paves the foundation for our relationship.

Unknown: 52:05

Yeah, very good. So Moore and Gillette put the word masculine on the front page of their book. Nothing wrong with that, because they didn't say male. They said masculine, which is an important distinction. But I lead this material to large groups of men and women every single time, without fail, everybody in the room sees themselves in these descriptions. Yeah, 100% every time. And it it's not, it's for everyone. I think

Jacob O'Neill: 52:41

it can be really easy to get lost in the mask. And masculine feminists so charged these days, across the the internet around like, if you put masculine in front of something, instantly it's like, well, no, that's not women. Or you put feminine something men like, no, that's not for me. And they can be this really, can really easily divide the room and create this. It can sometimes create more separation, unless you've got the time to and Meg and I speak a lot about polarity, and we talk about the nuance and how it's not it can be so easily misused or weaponized. And what I feel with yours is it doesn't have that charge where it's like, oh, cool. The Fox isn't masculine or feminine. The fox is the fox. The gorilla isn't masculine or feminine, it's the gorilla. And it's the qualities or these traits that or these agendas that we can all relate to or understand without it having a biological or a gender specific kind of approach, very good.

Unknown: 53:35

I don't ever talk about gender. I don't need to. I just lay out my findings because there are female wolves that marry male sheep, yes. And there are female gorillas that marry male Wolf, male foxes, yeah. There are male wolves that marry female sheep. It does not matter. Archetype is beneath gender,

Jacob O'Neill: 53:56

and it also it kind of removes the right or wrong as well. Absolutely, that's what I feel like. You know, you were talking about some of these, and it's easy. You could label a man who has the sheep archetype, the nice guy, and you could easily make the nice guy wrong. But it's actually like, this is my survival toolbox that I've created? Yeah, I

Unknown: 54:16

would say this is my contribution to the village. This is my gift. And you can argue that the distinction between kind and nice, but the simple reality is nature didn't make a mistake. Some men are alpha warrior killers and they will kill to protect the innocent. And who are they killing? They're killing other wolf warriors that are much more narcissistic and sadistic and imbalanced. They kill they that's their job is to protect the innocent the benevolent wolves and warriors protect the innocent from the malevolent wolves and Aries. That's fascinating. But nature didn't make a mistake. There are female sovereigns, Queens. There are there are female warriors. Like it's, I work with lots of female wolves who are like no one's ever explained how I feel on the inside until now, and there are gentlemen, and it's fine, and it's just this understanding changes everything. It's just I have this glorious experience week in, week out, listening to people share on group calls the astonishing difference this is made in their partnership, their family home. Almost every parent that's ever done this work has said the same thing, I'm having the best relationship with my child I've ever had. Ever I worked with a lady she had triplet boys. They were 22 when she found me like and they identical, but they were different. Archetypally, she read every single book on raising boys that exists. She said, If I don't have it, it doesn't exist. Yeah, not a single one of them explained that they might be different archetypally, not a single one. And it's not that the people writing the books on raising boys aren't good men or women doing their absolute best to contribute. It's just everyone speaks through their archetypal agenda and how they raise their boys, and their archetypal agenda is somehow the way that they should share with the world. And there's nothing wrong with that. But until you understand the nature of the psyche, it's maybe accurate for some people.

Jacob O'Neill: 56:36

And I'm the eldest of four, and we're each a different archetype. If I was to put all four of us based on your body of work, I'm the sheep, my next sister's the gorilla, my next sister's the Fox, and then my younger brother's the wolf. There you go. And we all, if you if, if we all, if I tried to, and I did this, I tried to make them all see or I had an agenda. Yeah, they all had to live by my agenda, where we're kind, we look up, we don't, we don't break the in this. And my, my sister Eliza, she's in system oriented. My sister Whitney, don't tell her what to do, ever, ever, and she'll, she'll actively go against the rules to almost flex that, that freedom agenda. And then my little brother, fiery like instantly protect. He's, it's so funny, because he and I get along so well, and he's the wolf, and I'm the sheep, and we, we now through, like, the work that I've done across the board, but also, you know, understanding your work to the degree I do, I no longer try to get him to see life the way I see it. I can accept that, hey, you're, you're a warrior, man, yeah, and that's, that's, that's the way that you, you move in the world, and I, I'm a little more touchy feely, and that's okay, and we can compliment each other, and we can support each other. And it's yeah, it's like you said, it's not just about the intimate relationship that you have with your lover. This filters out into all worlds. And you know, it makes me a better team, better member of the team, because I can understand my team better. It's

Unknown: 58:13

understanding the biggest issue in all relationships, in the world of good kind, decent people, right? The biggest issue by volume, nothing comes close is confusion. Nothing comes close by volume of the distress and dysfunction of people's lives. What is the confusion? It's archetypal confusion. So by volume, the number one solution to distress, breakdowns, heartbreak in relationships and family homes, between good people is not understanding our archetypal differences.

Jacob O'Neill: 58:55

That's it. Man, I feel that we're sort of actually put a surface. Yeah, I feel like if we go any deeper, we're going to just be here for the rest of the day. And we've, we've got things to do, of course, but man, what is a great place. You know, we have a solid listener, solid group of listeners that come back every week and love what Meg and I talk about, and a big part of you know, this next sort of iteration of of the podcast is giving people different arenas to go and explore. So these guys have never heard of your work, most likely, unless they've, you know, seen some of the stories that I've shared from when I was doing the training. Where's the best place for them to start with you? And what is it, you know? And if they like what they've started with, how do they get into your world and learn more?

Unknown: 59:43

Thank you for asking. So I'm sure you're going to add the link below, but the first place to go is archetypalrelationships.com. If you wanted to visit the website, you can do the quiz. The quiz is free. It's on the website. It's right there at the top. You can just click on the word quiz, and you'll get the answers. You'll get some answers straight away, if you're listening to this and you know instantly that it's time for you to transform whatever relationship in your life that matters to you, send an email straight away to info@rorykillmartin.com info at archetype or relationships.com and mention this podcast and give us your details if you want to book a call with a member of my Team, the web link is a R hyphen calendar.com A R, hyphen calendar.com if you go there and book a call, just mention in the note this podcast, and we will have a very special deal and discount for you to come and discover this work as my way of saying, thank you to Jacob for inviting me to come and speak. Do it now, because we run our main programs three times a year, and depending on when you watch this, we're starting one quite soon. So if you want to act now and jump on this, and because it's instant results, like it's instant insights, and it's instant results, if you're in a relationship with a child or a partner, and it's going in the wrong direction, and you want instant results, just book a call AR hyphen, calendar.com, mention this podcast, and we'll take care of you. All right, we'll

Jacob O'Neill: 1:01:22

put all those links down in the show notes, of course, whether you're listening on YouTube, Spotify Apple, all of the links will be in the show notes. All of rory's details will be there, simple as that. And yeah, I can vouch for the you know, I went and did the five the five day training and got a lot out of it. And as I stepped, you know, literally, I'm days away from becoming a father. I'm excited to deepen into your work over the coming months and years, bro, and learn more and more so I can be that father that I want to be for my child, and also have. Like you said, I want to have an awesome, enjoyable life. So it's not just for the people that I'm relating with. It's for me as well. And I think that's super important. You know, you get to do this for yourself. Remember that, like this work is not just for you to be having better relationships for everyone else around you. It's for yourself as well. Yeah,

Unknown: 1:02:11

I would finish by quoting James Hollis, the number one thing you can do for the people you love, the most loving thing you can do for yourself and the people you love is to render yourself more conscious. It's not the second most loving thing the third most loving thing, it's not in the top 10. It's the most loving thing you can do for yourself and the people you love is render yourself more conscious. Archetypal wisdom, for me, is the number one route to render yourself more conscious in relationship to yourself and others, and I've been looking for 38 years.

Jacob O'Neill: 1:02:50

Here it is. Go check it out. Hit the links below. Thank you for listening, guys. We'll see you next week for another episode. Bless up and big love.

Unknown: 1:02:59

Thank you, peace,

Jacob O'Neill: 1:03:04

yo yo, yo. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of sex, love and everything in between. Now if you'd like to stay connected with Meg and I, you can head on over to Instagram and follow me at the Jacob O'Neill. And where can people find you? Lover,

Meg O'Neill: 1:03:19

at B dot. Meg, dot. O amazing.

Jacob O'Neill: 1:03:24

And yeah, guys, check out the show notes for all other information in regards to what we've got coming up. And yeah, we're super, super grateful that you guys for taking the time to listen in to this podcast. If you do have any topics or any questions like I said, hit us up on Instagram, and we'll see what we can do. Apart from that, have a beautiful, beautiful rest of your day. Thanks for being here. Big, big. Love you.