Ep 80: Normalising 'clunky' sex in long term relationships

Ever felt clumsy in bed? You’re not alone.

Join Meg and Jacob O’Neill as they dive into the messy, beautiful reality of long-term relationships and intimacy. They explore how those awkward, clunky sex moments are completely normal and can actually lead to a deeper connection.

In this episode, they talk openly about their struggles, desires, and how personal growth in sex can bring you closer. They emphasize the importance of quality time together, reflecting on a day filled with connection, exploring each other’s bodies during pregnancy, and the impact of small, meaningful moments.

Meg and Jacob also tackle the tough stuff: frustration, hurt feelings, and finding ways to reconnect. They share how staying curious, addressing emotions, and embracing the messiness of intimacy can transform your relationship.

They also riff off on:

• How much Jacob and Meg loves high quality food -- and Buchi Kombucha
• Meg shares personal stories of clunky sex experiences in long term relationships.
• Meg and Jacob encounters a clunky moment during sex leading to an open conversation after
• Meg and Jacob shares juicy details about trying 69, with Meg preferring deep receptivity and Jacob liking the intertwined mess of giving and receiving.
• Meg emphasizes the importance of investing time and energy into improving one's sex life, rather than accepting it as static and unchanging.
• Honoring clunky sex moments can lead to more animalistic, wild quickies for women.
• Jacob and Meg discusses surface-level vs. deep pleasure in sex and masturbation.

and many more.

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IG: @the.meg.o @thejacoboneill @sexloveeverythinginbetween

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Transcript

0:00

Uh, we might be beginning to have sex, and then maybe I have an emotion come up and, you know, maybe there's like, tears, or there's suddenly closure and resistance, or maybe you're doing something and you spank me, or you try something and it's just like, oh, that didn't feel good. Or you accidentally pull my hair, and it turns into something where my body and you're trying to do things, but you're feeling my body closed and I'm not open anymore, and now it's like, this isn't working, and it was working, and what the fuck and what do we do now? And like, That's so fucking normal. Yo, yo, yo. Lovers. Welcome, welcome, welcome to sex, love and everything in between. We're the O'Neills. You're here with Megan Jacob, and this is the place we have really uncensored conversations about sex, intimacy and relationships. We're super excited you're here. Enjoy this episode. Oh. Welcome. How are we going with that? Sponsored by Bucci, sponsored by Bucha, and Bucha, not really, but Gucci, we'd be up for it. Jason trace, we would be so down. So give us that affiliate link. We don't even have to be sponsored. I would shout Bucha forever and always. I was drinking, um, I saw in some of the snippets of last episode, I was drinking kombucha. And if you're gonna drink kombucha, you're not drinking kombucha unless it's Bucha kombucha. Yes, that's those in Queensland, Australia. I don't know if they sell anywhere else, and if you don't have access to it, then move somewhere you do. Fun fact, Jacob used to work for the company, like years ago, and then we got so obsessed. We already loved Bucha before that. Yeah, but we got so obsessed with it that then we bought a did I consult you, or did I just do that? I think you just went in. Did it. I was happy with it. But what's it called? It's called a kegerator. We bought a kegerator so we had kombucha on tap at our house. We still have the kegerator. We just haven't bought the full kegs as well. We've got Bucha coming on. Well, because the wedding for Sam and Jana, I'm taking it with us. Oh, cool, yeah. So taking with us, and I've ordered them some Bucci. Oh, fun. Okay, so we're gonna be back stocked up. But people would come to our house, especially when we lived at old days, we'd always have visitors who would be like Bucci. She likes from kombucha. We've got it on top. People just thought it was the weirdest thing. I wouldn't say, you know, when people make rational decisions and look at like, five year plans, I don't think we've done that too well. We're getting better at it, guys. We do a weekly Money meeting now. We are so much better at managing our money and maybe thinking about, like, do we really need that? And I also love to learn the answer is always yes. I also love to think, Well, fuck it, I I'm gonna get down in a blaze of glory surrounded by saunas, ice baths, hot tubs, Kegerator systems. Gonna have a cool room for a fridge. Oh, my whole the whole garage will become a bulk stock, bulk storage. Love it, because I love to buy in bulk. But, um, I think we're talking about this last episode, we one of our values is quality food. And that has, do, you know, that was actually something I was worried about, because when I was open to love 10 years ago, when I was, you know, we hadn't quite met yet, and I knew I was open to a relationship. I was what I called plant based, technically vegan. You were so vegan I was, I was plant based at the time, and I always used to think, wow. Like, what is that going to be like when I go on a date with someone? I almost just felt like, Oh, is that going to be uncomfortable that I have to tell them I don't eat gluten and I don't eat this and I only eat organic. And like, I was just like, I used to be so much more particular about what I ate. And then I met you, and you worked at my health food store, so you already knew everything I ate, and you already knew I knew what I was in for. Oh, my weird. It was kind of cool to have a vegan girlfriend back then as well. It was kind of trendy. It's like, yeah, like, she's a vegan, she doesn't eat meat. She's so and now it's cool to have, like, a carnival girlfriend that makes her own, well, not carnivore, but, like, loves good quality meat. Makes sourdough that is slow cook and brisket, yeah, yeah. Well, that was my, that. That's, that was my, um, pendulum swing. Yeah, yeah, you swung hard, yeah, but, um, definitely, quality is a is a value that we share, quality food and also just quality people that like, like, for me, I'm thinking of like, yeah, Jason Tracy, just like, they're, they're quality people. Really sounds like they're paying us, right? Yeah? And. I let's get back to Bucha. Jason went, I loved it, like, quickly, just, I think it's important just to see this, like Jace was, like a corporate dude, like he was like, a suit and tie. That's cool. Had a moment with a kombucha over in America, and he's like, I gotta make this shit back home. This has changed my life. Came home, started making Bucha quit his job and completely changed his life. And now he lives on a farm up the sunny coast, growing organic feed Joe, as do they live up? Yeah. And he literally grows all of this amazing produce so he can, like, do a closed loop system for his kombucha, like, he literally juices his own ginger and turmeric, and then creates the most epic kombucha, like you can't there's I'm yet to experience a kombucha in Australia that's as good as this. The only one that's as good as this is when I've been to America and I've drank the one that he loves, which is GTs. Yeah. I bought their fijoa jam at the markets the other day. Quality, oh my gosh, incredible fire cider quality. They made this fermented mango mousse. It was, it's unlike anything I've ever tasted. Like he's an actual wizard. And if you see him, he's normally wearing his little wizard hat, and he's just got this, this, like, childlike energy about him. But he's so, yeah, so devoted to his vision and just quality man like, when people, you know, that's what I love about this company, and that's why I loved working for them, and why I love shouting them out. And, like, a big thing of the gathering of men too, is I take the big keg system out, and we set up, and we have, like, Gucci on the last day, and everyone, like, has this fresh kombucha after, you know, we only drink water and tea sort of throughout the three or four days, and at the end, we crack kombucha and coconut water. And just love being able to introduce people to quality, quality, quality products. Sign up via my link for sign up to my cause. But I don't know it's fun. I don't know when someone's passionate about something, and then you get to eat like, you know, experience the product that is the result of their passion. It's hard not to be like be a spokesperson for it. Yes, I also think and I need to adjust and Oh god, I Oh, I just get nervous now that we're like, fully on YouTube, we're on YouTube. Like, the whole thing, I'm like, I'm pretty sure I've flashed in you are wearing underwear. I'm wearing underwear today, but that's I don't usually. Yeah, so guys, just keep an eye out. Watch the YouTube, and maybe you ever see me switching positions, you might get a glimpse, because I did the washing early today, and I didn't have a lot of, oh, I hung out, I reckon, 15 pairs of underwear. So you must be down to the lot, and I hung out all your swimwear bottoms as well. So I'm like, You must be down to like, that must be your last pair. I don't really wear, and I don't know why, but I stopped really wearing underwear during pregnancy. I don't know if it's because, also, obviously, during pregnancy, I'm not having my monthly bleed like I think it is a thing that I'd be conscious of as a woman. I'd want to wear underwear in case, you know, I started bleeding, or there's just, there's just that feeling where I don't know, I just felt more of a liberation, and I was wearing, like, no underwear. And it was amazing. I want to get back to that. Anyway, I was going to say it was something about quality products, but I think the time's passed, let's get into our topic of the day. Topic of the day, we're gonna talk about clunky sex. Yeah, we're talking about the reality of clunky sex. Yeah, the truth of what sex can sometimes look like in long term relationships. And I wouldn't even say long term relationships. I would also say this is present in any kind of relating experience, any kind of sexual experience. But this really came out. We had a relationship Q and A inside, full spectrum woman this week, and one of the beautiful women inside asked a question around this. And you know, we brought a lot of our personal, personal stories and personal experience. I was quite graphic. I was very graphic. Um, but yeah, this particular woman shared that like, oh, sometimes when, you know, we get into the bedroom, and there was a conversation around like, you know when, when he's ready for sex. I might not be ready for sex, but also there's this experience of sometimes sex feels really clunky and like, you know, he might touch me quickly, and then I might ask to slow down, and then, you know, just this energy of it, it not being like, Oh, we both want it. And then he throws me up against the wall, and it's. Just passionate, and the whole time it's just, you know, this beautiful, free flowing experience of deep passion, and we're feeling incredible and pleasure filled the entire time. And I could feel the part of her that was like, I think we're doing something wrong because we have those clunky moments. And we were just like, No fucking way that is a very normal part of having sex, yes, and it's also a normal part of having sex. When you start to become more aware, I think it's very easy for people to just have sex and kind of use it as this routine thing that they do, yeah, and then there's never any depth created. It kind of just becomes a task that you complete together to get a certain sensation. But if you start exploring a little more of your own depth or growth or healing or embodiment, then these things are going to start to reveal themselves for you guys to have the opportunity to work through Yes, your and your sensitivity to the clunkiness amplifies correct yes, yes. And so really, I think this conversation we want to normalize that you know, the clunkiness, the grittiness, the things not always just feeling like they're unfolding perfectly and passionately like that's okay and that's completely normal. And I would really argue that it's a couple's ability to be with the clunkiness and not shy away from the clunkiness and to lean into those gritty moments where things aren't going to plan, that actually is a doorway to some of the most erotic, beautiful, intimate moments you can share with your lover. That's a doorway to even deeper intimacy, deeper pleasure, deeper orgasms together. It almost opens this trap door that you both fall into at the same time, and you're just free falling in like the the richness of like desire. That's what I imagined. That's what it felt like. It felt like I was really like I didn't want to. I felt myself feeling a little vulnerable, sharing what I was sharing, and then when I shared it, it almost felt like this doorway opened, and we both sort of stumbled through it, and then all of a sudden, my senses were alive. The feeling was there, and there was this energy swirling. Then all of a sudden, we're, like, consumed by the and I was like, Whoa, all right. But before that, I didn't think we're gonna get there. I did not. I wasn't sure. I was like, Oh, we've fucked this up again. Fuck, oh, shit. Really? Like, there's a part of me. It's like, really, is this what I thought we would I thought this was going to be easy. I thought this was going to just happen the way it was meant to happen. And I was going to get out of this having get out, like, get out of having to do this thing. When you say get out of having to do this thing, you mean like, like, be like, be with the clunky, with the clunky. Just gonna be like, a smooth entry, easy, but, you know, and whenever I want it to be easy, that's when I'm realizing, okay, I don't actually want to connect. I'm just wanting to get somewhere, yes, and so Jacob's talking about a very clunky exports. Started off very clunky, the sexual experience we had, then it got the other night, very, very carnal. Carnal? Is that the right word, or is that a bit, I think carnal desires, I don't know if you can very carnivorous. No, let's, let's get back on track. That was silly. Anyway. Where was I? We had a clunky experience the other day. Yes, we had a clunky experience. I was going to ask you, should we go into detail, but I feel like we should. Yes, I think this like, if we tell the story, then the little nuggets of gold will, yeah, reveal themselves. So you've been away a lot. I've been wanting more sex than, than we've been having. Yes, I've been, I've been really, yeah, craving more sex. And that's been a conversation, you know, we've been having, and I've been bringing forth. And then you were home, and you know, we had, because this happened Sunday night, didn't it, after a beautiful day together, correct? Yeah. So we just had, like, an and something I know about myself, and you know you know about me, is that I something that really opens me and supports us to have epic sex together, is when we've spent quality time together, and we've spent time and I'm feeling like my cut really full of you, and you just like penetrated me with your attention and presence for hours like that turns me on. Like, yes, there's certain things that you can do. Are there smaller things that you can do that turn. Me on, but like, quality time is just in, just everything, like everything, and so we just had, like, the most magnificent day together. Just like, yeah, I felt so full. So it just naturally felt like, oh, we went for a bike ride. We went around to Burley. We went and had breakfast together. Then we went and bought your the dress you were wearing. We bought clothes. And then you're like, Oh, I like clothes. I know you bought me two dresses. I always feel so good after I buy something, and because my this is just like a nice, fun, tight dress. And then I bought another dress, yeah, and then we went and hung out on the point. We just laid down and read our book, yeah, just spent time together, and you were wearing your cap backwards, and that really turned me on. Then we grow back, and we hung out and went to go. I went and got some food for lunch. We hung out on the couch. We just did a lot of things. We spent it wasn't that we were doing anything massive, yeah, but we were doing but we were doing things together, yes, and that's what quality time doesn't mean that you want to go to the south of France and spend time, or it doesn't need to be this big, grand thing. It literally is quality time. Hey, can we spend the day together just doing things that we love? Yeah? Can you spell that rip so bad, make my eyes water. It's vile, so vile. It's like, it's like taste. But I want to keep going. Let's keep going. This is sorry. Part of it just, it's, it's an attack on the senses. But I just really want to speak, because I remember you saying something on you're like, oh, it's not that I you like, Oh, I thought I needed sex. But what I really just needed was quality time, and then I and then I need sex. But the thing is, is, it's the quality time, it's that connection that leads to to the this kind of sex that we both really, really crave. Yes, definitely, yeah. And I was making in some of our conversations recently, I had been making it about, like, oh, like, the the act of sex where on Sunday, and, you know, I realized this consistently, yeah, but that, oh, it's actually just feeling, feeling our togetherness, and feeling Yeah, that you're there's nowhere else you need to be, and where we're together like that is, that's Yeah, that's so it's one thing, if you're a man, to be able to hold The awareness of all the things that are going on. But there's going to be a point where, like, yeah, that's one, one way of looking at life. But then eventually, like, if you're going to spend time with your partner and really fill her cup with quality time, you need to take the awareness from my vision, my family, my friends, humanity, everything. You need to go and be like you. I'm experiencing life through this moment with you and nothing else. Yeah. And that is kind of like yeah, the feeling that I have, or that the feeling I assume you're wanting is you're the only you know in a room full of people. You're the only one I see in a room full of everything, like nothing, your phone, your business, like anything, you're choosing me, and that's, you know, as someone, you have such a huge vision, and I'm such, I'm such a cheerleader, and I'm, I'm so supportive of you being out there in the world, you know, bringing your vision to life. And I understand that that means you being away sometimes, and you working really hard, and you, you know, being in the work, yeah, but deep down, I really crave those moments where, deep down, I'm more important than the vision, maybe. And it's balanced, right? It's not, it's not one or the other. It's both, yes, yeah, sorry if you don't factor that in, like I hadn't been one. Something's going to start to wobble, something's going to start to cause tension. And that was, you know, you were speaking into what you needed, and not only what you needed, but what our relationship needed to feel truly satisfied, yes. And so we spent this beautiful day together, and it just felt like, you know, we both just felt, even though we weren't really talking about it, it's just like we always know sex unfolds so beautifully from that place. It just like, so naturally. It's not forced. It's not something we have to have conversations about. It's just like we've spent the day together. Of course, it's just going to naturally unfold into, you know, wanting to explore each other's bodies, at that stage of pregnancy where I get puffed from talking a lot. And so it got to the end of the day, and yeah, we went. We went into the bedroom, and I think you told me, did you tell me to lay down? I said, get in the bedroom and lay down. Yeah. Yeah, and then you started to explore my body. And for me, I just took that as, like, okay, like my job right now is just to receive and so you were really touching me and exploring me and and I was just really practicing relaxing into that, and like surrendering into that, and like melting into the sensation. And then after a little while of that, do you remember exactly what happened to you? I can't remember. No, you know what happened? I felt a contraction. I think the contraction started like you contracted first, did I it's definitely your fault. But I felt a con you contracted. And then I think you asked what was if there was something going on for me? And I was like, No, is everything okay for you? And then you kind of brought to the space like, Hey, I don't really feel you right now, like I'm touching you and almost that you felt that I was like, tapping out of the experience and just wanting you to to turn me on, and I wasn't a participant in that experience, yeah. And I feel in the past, there's been moments where that has played out for us as well, so that, yeah, I do get quite sensitive around that, where in the past, you know, there's been like, oh, well, yeah, turn turn me on. And the way that I'm like, oh, like, there's a part of me that's so devoted to that. But at the same time, it's like, if I feel you relaxing and surrendering, sometimes, what I can make that means like, Oh, you, it looks like you're going to sleep. Looks like you're just like, relaxing, yeah. It's like, mindful starfish, yeah. And like that to me, doesn't feel like, for me, I want to feel the dance of energy, yeah? And in that, it doesn't feel like there's anything flow. I'm like, I'm touching, but it doesn't feel like there's an awakening going on, yeah? And so you express that, and then you there was something you said, and I don't remember, but it really, it really, it hurt. There was, there was something you'd said, and it wasn't you like trying to hurt me, but there was something that just felt like Ouch. And I think it was the piece around not being a willing, not not feeling, not feeling my you're gonna say something. Yeah, I think I'm trying. This is what I feel like. I remember saying around the it wasn't the exact words. Was almost like, Well, you're the one that says that you want sex. But then when we're here, it's like, you don't you? There's not, I'm not getting anything from you. That was it. Yeah. It's like, you have talked such a big game, and now we're here, it's like, you just lay back and yeah, like you close your eyes and like, I'm literally just sitting here by myself touching you. And then for me, I'm like, I want to like that where, you know I want, I guess, yeah, I want something, yes, and yeah, it created a lot of clunkiness. It really did. You didn't say you talked a big game, just so everyone's clear. That was the like, the energy, yes, but you were, you were like, Hey, you, you've, you've expressed this desire, and then you lie down, and it kind of just feels like I'm giving you a massage, and that I'm, it's my job. And, you know, yeah, I started to cry, and I was like, Hey, I'm, this is I just expressed, like, Hey, this is actually me doing, like, opening and doing what I feel I need to do to be able to receive pleasure. And when my eyes are closed, I am breathing, and I am like, I am focusing on your hands, on my body, and I'm focusing on sensation and all these different things. And there was whilst we're in that this clunkiness probably lasted like five minutes, 10 minutes, maybe we were really in it, and I was crying, and I had this feeling internally. I don't know if I said it, but I don't think I did, but I had this feeling internally of like, fuck. Like, yeah. Like, why is this so hard? Why can't we just have sex? Like, yeah, why tell me, yes. What is this? This fucking annoying, man, I just want to, can't we just do it? Yeah, yeah, and yeah. That felt really frustrating. And there was a part of me that was like, I don't know if this is gonna work tonight, and I maybe we are literally just gonna end up, like, being like, okay, like, you know, maybe we, maybe we never have sex together. But I was like, I was like, fuck this. Like, in my, like, the story, I was saying, God, why does it like, God, if this is how it's gonna be, I don't want to do this. Like, yeah, this is what it, you know, takes for us to have sex. And that always is, like, there's something here then, yes, yeah. And then so we were in it. And really want to, what I want to get at here is that it was gritty and it was clunky, and there was this feeling of, like, ah, like, both of us just don't want to be in this moment anymore. And like, Fuck this, and this is hard. And like, how, how do we come back from this? And how do we actually want to explore and connect? And, you know, fuck each other after. A moment like this, like it felt like that was never going to happen. I couldn't see how to get to that place, from how I was feeling in my body and what was, what was between us in the space. And then I remember really, like being with that and making the decision, because I was kind of half lying down. And then I remember making the conscious decision of, okay, like, I'm, I've heard his desire to, like, want to feel me more, and not just want to turn me on, but like, wanting me to be a real part of the experience right now. So I was like, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna choose this, like, I'm, really, I remember just like, really, yeah, really choosing to lean in in that moment. So I came and, like, you know, sat on you, like my legs wrapped around your waist, and I just began to, like, stroke down your head and down your body, and just like, really gently, like, stroke my fingers all around your head and neck and shoulders and down your sides. And there wasn't any words anymore, no, that for me is like, yeah, when I think we've done the erotic blueprint and they're like, oh, like, with the energetic pieces, like, oh, like, I that's really important to me for sex. I was like, Oh, I in my head, I was like, oh, Meg, wants to have sex. Like, this is leading to it, okay, I've got to really give to her. But then in that with the feeling of like I can't feel her, it's like, oh, that's actually me, not, you know, speaking into my desires, like, hey, I want, I want your engagement. I want to feel you activated in the experience where you're giving and receiving and we're sharing, sharing energy. Yeah, that's exactly it didn't need to be words. You literally came and sat on on on me, wrapped your legs around me and just started touching me and like, then just having our hearts close together, having, you know, your breath on my neck. I was like, Oh, this is Oh, this is stimulating. This is awakening, or this is drawing me in, yes. And very quickly things shifted, like, very quickly you returned that touch, and we were just suddenly in this, you know, bubble of, yeah, like sensation and that, that erotic energy, became so alive very, very quickly, yeah, and then it was just some of, I know you say, I always say this, but I truly like that was some of the best sex I feel we've had. We were 69 and I do not have we spoken about this on the podcast before? I feel like 69 position is so fucking overrated. And I think it can be a very over stimulating position and experience. And I also really believe that, like I truly do love receiving so I love like using all of my energy to so deeply receive, or using all of my energy to so deeply give. Like, if I'm sucking your cock, I want every cell of my body to be a part of that, like gift and offering to you, yes, and if you are going down on me, I want every cell of my body, you know, in that deep receptivity mode. So sometimes I just feel like it's challenging in 60 like, and we don't ever really do like we have in the past. And then I'm like, I don't really like this, but if I am like, so in the energy, and it has to be such a specific energy and sex where, yeah, you know, even the sex we had the other night, we were like, changing positions a lot, yeah, and we were like, mixing things up. And like, we were taking each other to the edge, and then, like falling back, and like trying out different things. And there was a real, like, activated, alive energy in the space, which was so delicious and so beautiful, and so, yeah, 69 felt really fun. I was, like, wanting to be overstimulated. It was like, give me all of it. Give me all the things, all the stimulation, all the sensation. Right now? Yes, do you feel the same with 69 you know how you say you like the like? Either be fully giving or fully receiving? I like to be in the mess of sex. I like that. I like the like, the intertwined Nate that to me, is what I really like, the giving and receiving at the same time. And maybe that's actually something that I really took from that experience. And even I really want to speak into this we we have been having sex for it'll be 10 years in December or August, August, yeah. So to be 10 years very, very soon that we have been having sex, yeah, and to still be learning about each other in the bedroom, and also still be refining and exploring and working out what feels really good 10 years later, I. Think he's so fucking cool, and it's so important if you're in a long term relationship, if you want to keep the passion alive, you can't just expect that you know what turns your partner on and you you've got to stop looking at your sex life or your desires or your partner. Is this static, unchanging thing even I just want to add one more thing here. I did a Q and A on Instagram recently, and someone asked the question like, hey, what do I do? I love my partner so much, but he's not the best sex of my life. Do I just kind of accept the fact that he's not just keep keep speaking. I was going to check. The guy just noticed the camera is unplugged, and I want to check and make sure it's still going can make sure it's still going okay. Um, do Do I just accept the fact that he is not the best sex of my life? And I was like, No. Like, no, he can still be the best sex of your life. Like, why are you believing that that's just like, what you're experiencing now is what it's ever going to be like you you can bring your desires forth and trusting that no matter what you're experiencing right now in your sex life, sex and intimacy is something like anything that you can build skills for, and you can bring tools in, and you can get better at it as an individual and as at it and as a couple. Like, if you actually intentionally invest your time and energy and sometimes resources into your sex life, of course it's going to get better. So this idea that I've just got to, like, be satisfied with, satisfied with what I have, and like this is it No fucking way. Like, no fucking way, 100% and it is something that, you know, we have to bring curiosity to. So, yeah, I just love the fact that, you know, 10 years in and I'm like, Oh yeah, I worked out on Sunday, that actually maybe I do love that push and pull and that, like, not just deeply receiving and not just deeply giving, like, there is that, like, you know, beautiful exchange of energy in that way, and that, that more like, aliveness, yeah? And that's just another flavor, right? And that I was like, oh, that's what I'm I'm enjoying. And it doesn't mean that the other ways of having sex is wrong and we can't do that. It's just like, oh, that's what's really feeding me right now, and that doesn't mean I'm not going to evolve, change or choose something different in the future, or have both as part of our repertoire. Yeah. So I think coming back to the clunky beginning of that sexual experience, and that is not the only clunky sexual experience we've ever had. We have had many, many, many, many, and we've spoken about them here on the podcast, like many times, where we might be beginning to have sex, and then maybe I have an emotion come up, and, you know, maybe there's like tears, or there's suddenly closure and resistance, or maybe you're doing something and you spank me, or you try something and it's just like, oh, that didn't feel good. Or you accidentally pull my hair, and it turns into something where my body and you're trying to do things, but you're feeling my body closed and I'm not open anymore, and now it's like, this isn't working, and it was working, and what the fuck and what do we do now? And like, That's so fucking normal. It's so normal. And first of all, don't make that wrong, like when we just think that the only thing that should be allowed in a sexual experience is pleasure and passion, like we really are depriving ourselves of deeper, more expansive experiences together as a couple, and experiences of intimacy, experiences of orgasm. Even feel this as a woman, when I just used to see sex and orgasm as like, Okay, I'm only allowed to feel pleasure here. I was limited in what I was able to experience, but as soon as I was like, I'm I'm going to allow sex. I'm going to allow myself to be fully like all of me to be here, if I want to cry, if I want to make primal noises, if I need to be like, you know, bring my frustration and my closure. If I need to bring any flavor of me here, I'm going to that expanded my sex life like nothing else. And it's the same for us as a couple, like whatever, like, what's the truth of the moment? We always say this, if something's arising, that's the truth of the moment. And you want to get to the motherfucking other side, like the epic sex lies on the other side. Are you devoted as a couple to meeting the truth of the moment, no matter how gritty or clunky or awkward or like, this wasn't part of the plan. We were having epic sex, and now it feels clunky like, meet the truth of the moment, that's, that's, that's the only way through. Yeah, I just. Think of like David data's book, finding God through sex. Yeah, and I think that like when you start to see sex, Oh, be careful. See sex beyond the definition of I'm going to experience pleasure through a sensation in my body to this is going to crack me open to the infinite nature of existence, yes and tap and give me access to oneness in a way that I've never, ever truly, truly experienced, or maybe I have, but it's different because it's in this moment, and it's coming through this, this moment, right here, in this specific, unique experience that I'm having with this other human when you start to explore that things get a whole lot fucking deeper. Yes. And that doesn't mean that sex can't be fun and fast and a little wild. You can still have that that's still a part of it, yeah. But also sex, sex widens and the definition becomes so much more vast, yes, and that can feel a little bit overwhelming if you haven't explored this, this realm. So once again, I think for me, it's like, Can sex allow me to honor the deeper truth that is emerging here? Yeah, deeper than what I'm my expectations are deeper than what my partner's expectations are. We still have needs and desires. That's cool, but what's deeper that wants to be revealed here Yes, and when you honor that, sometimes it's your partner collapsing into a deeper, deep grief. And we've had so many beautiful moments where I thought sex was going to be super easy. And then there's this, like closure, numbness, hand on the heart, come around, hold you. And then all of a sudden there's this, like grief moving through you, which is like, ah, that's what sex is right now. It's, it's giving us access to this deeper feeling, and allowing you to feel safe, to like we become the like artists. We become practitioners of like, you know, honoring the deeper truth and that that, for me, is like, amazing. But then there's also the part of, you know, the practitioner or the awareness piece is like, when you go to have like, the wild, fun, quick quickie in the middle of the day, it doesn't need to be this deep emotional experience. You don't need to take it down and make it into this massive things, like, sometimes we're animals and we want to fuck, and that's cool as well. So I've witnessed people that get too into the deep and spiritual and the it's got to be this, and it's got to give us access to oneness. It's like, sometimes I want to fuck, bend you over and fuck you on the, you know, yeah, on the on the countertop in the kitchen. And then I want to cook eggs and have coffee and go work. It's like, cool, like it gets to be all of it. That's what I think it's like, it's not, it's not one or the other. And I think honoring the clunky and honoring the moments of sex that are really calling for your attention, yes, is a doorway, especially as a woman, is a doorway to being able to enjoy the more animalistic, wild, quickie kind of sex. Because as a woman, and we always talk about this, like the channel between our hearts. You know when, when that gets blocked or clogged? I know you don't like that word, but when the channel between our hearts gets blocked with like, Unspoken desires and unmet, unmet expectations and, you know, resentment and all of these different things that show there is no hiding from that when we step into the bedroom, when we lean into physical intimacy, suddenly, especially for women, as we're so sensitive and our heart is the doorway to our pussy, we can't just turn that off. We can't just ignore that resentment. Or if we do, it can be it it can create trauma in our body and deepen closure, and actually, you know, create a pussy space that becomes so numb because we're not listening and we're not honoring what is being asked of us. And so it's really important to be able to, you know, honor those moments that are coming up. And if it is like, ah, there's this, like, I'm feeling frustration here, and I thought I just wanted to fuck, or I thought I just wanted to have sex, and now I'm, like, feeling anger towards my partner, or frustration, or there is grief here, or there suddenly is this truth on my heart that I want to bring well, like that's the truth of the moment, do not try and bypass that, because a you will end up having really shitty sex, sex that feels disembodied, sex that does not lead you to hurt, to feeling more deeply connected to your partner, which, again, both men and women desire. But for women I work with a lot of. And that is a lot of the time. Yes, we want an orgasm, yes, we want to experience pleasure, but we also really deeply want physical intimacy, because of the deep emotional connection we feel when we're, you know, co creating that experience with our lover. So do not bypass anything that's alive in the moment, because it will end up with you having shitty sex, and B it will end up being a disservice to your relationship, because it's here for a reason, and the bedroom is such a vulnerable space where sometimes things arise that we don't have time, or we don't feel the presence of in our waking life. You might, you know, outside of the bedroom, you might be back raising your children and working and doing things, and you're not as sensitive to those pieces, but when you are naked in bed with your lover and suddenly you're feeling like, you know, disconnected or hurt or pain or resentment, whatever it is like That is asking to be brought into conversation that is asking to be met, and that will liberate deeper levels of pleasure and intimacy in your sex life and in your partnership like nothing else. Oh, from the male's perspective, I love what you just shared around, like what you know, the women that you've worked with in your experience that I really, truly believe that men can get caught up in this, like, when I come I'm going to feel the relief, I'm going to feel the freedom and like, that's what I'm looking for. But the truth, the deeper truth, is like, can I actually expose myself and be vulnerable here and share a deeper truth which unlocks freedom and allows you to relax into sex which takes the pressure off you getting somewhere. Yeah, so this is the thing like men have. I'll generalize men men, men can, at times, look at sex as a way to access relief, yes, access this little mini moment of freedom like, oh, I therefore, just for a moment, they get that, that that relief, yeah, what if the clunkiness was there to give you the thing that you could address so You could feel that freedom before you even started to penetrate your woman. Yes. So you're not like, rushing or gripping for the orgasm or the ejaculation to experience that. So what if you had a relaxed into relief, like this relief, this feeling of relief through, like, liberating the truth, the deeper truth, and then you're relaxed. And what kind of fuck do you have in you, then what kind of sex do you have in you and you're not fucking from I need I need this. I need this so I feel relaxed, or I feel relief when you can actually like fuck and actually like, rather than just like jackhammer, you can actually move your hips in a more animal with more range. Yeah, rather than just me, I need to get to this point, because it's going to make me feel free. Yeah, I'm free. Therefore I'm going to move in a way that is like that represents freedom, and then that allows me to be more attuned to my body, which naturally allows you to attune to your, your partner's body as well, and that's what I feel. The clunkiness allows you to bring, bring through in your sex as a man, yes, and if you don't address that, and you just push through, and your partner's like, yeah, it's okay, we'll just, let's just, you know, grab the little just have sex. And you come, I guarantee you that relief will be fucking minute like minute. You'll have a moment of relief. You might roll over and fall asleep, but there'll be something. There'll be a there'll be a grating somewhere in your your field, somewhere in your being. That's like, I fucking bitched it. I fucking tapped out, and I fucking, I chose pleasure above like, the deeper truth. I chose my my I chose a sensation over the depth of truth that was, that was wanting to come through, yes, and like, in, in my experience, this like, that's the surface level pleasure of just coming. It's like, it's like coming with a vibrator versus coming in. If I'm looking at self pleasure, like coming and feeling every ounce of the emotion that wants to be liberated through your body and circulating that and breathing and then, like cracking open into the depth of of orgasm that ripples out through your entire system that might take 45 minutes, that might take longer. And you know you can vi you can use a vibrator and come in two minutes like that, that experience like surface level pleasure versus the. Depth of like true with like a, I would say, with like a capital T pleasure. Oh, capital T pleasure. And if we're just looking for like, the quick way out in sex or in, you know, masturbation and self pleasure, we're not actually ever going to be deepening into our true pleasure potential, our true orgasmic potential, but also our true intimacy potential, like the depth in which we're here to go and relate with our partner at and that I was just gonna say it's so easy to ignore the clunky moments. It's so easy to just go like, Oh, that was gritty. Or let's let's just like, Fuck through this. Let's just ignore that. Or let's just disconnect and roll over and go to sleep. Like, but like we shared in that experience, we made the decision to, ah, this is gritty, this is clunky, this feels uncomfortable. This part of us wants to just turn away and be like, Fuck this. This is hard, and yet we chose to stay in the experience and open through that, open through the closure, open through the clunkiness, to not take things personally, like yes, to hear each other and yes, to be able to express freely, but to not be like, Fuck you for thinking I was just being a starfish, like I was like, okay, I can hear you. I'm gonna be with that. And now I care about our intimacy more than making you feel wrong right now, I am more devoted to being connected to you in this moment. So what is what do I do? If I'm devoted to intimacy connection, I stay open, or I do my best to open the fuck back up. I make the space between our bodies smaller. I touch you, I reach out. I know that's everything I was talking about this with the women inside. The Art of loving a man this week that like it's such sometimes in those moments where there's such closure in our partnership. And you know, there's such tension, or block blocks in the channel between our hearts. Sometimes it can be as simple like, what can change and shift the trajectory of a moment is simply like, maybe you're lying in bed at night and you've rolled over, is just like rolling your body back towards your partner, or walking back into the room you've just stormed out of, or moving from one side of the kitchen bench to closer to your partner. Is holding their hand like the posture of our body, like, moving beyond the part of us that wants to go, like, I just don't want to be fucking near him right now. I don't want to give him my heart. I want to withhold all of my love, like devotion to love in those moments looks like, you know, can I bring my body back into the space? Can I physically open to him? Yeah. Can I bring, can I be present with what's here, and not choose to opt out? And, I mean, it's like, just the same for men like, I know a lot of men like, I'll just, I will just try again tomorrow, yeah, or just let it cool down. Or I'll just need, I just need to cool off. And it's like, do you need to cool off? Or are you trying to sweep this under the rug? You're trying to, like, push it to the side, and then you sort of forget about it. Then you come back in sheepishly, and you're like, is the coast clear? Can we, like, be friends again? It's like, that's lazy. And I get it. If you're just like, this is, you know, I say, I say that with judgment, but the deepest, it's fucking lazy. And I say that because I'm doing it. And I know the how much courage it takes. And I'm like, don't be fucking lazy. But I also want to honor that it's like, this is our safety mechanisms kicking in. This is what our nervous system is. Like, fuck, this isn't safe. I'm gonna go and find a place that is safe and not have to face off with this thing that may actually completely dissolve an identity that I had, that I'm always right and she's always wrong, or I'm always wrong and she's always right. We get stuck in this victim mindset, yeah, and the way that I see it is like we have an opportunity. We have an opportunity to lean back in and it might take five minutes you have to come back and go, Hey, I'm staying with this. Yeah. Might be go out and get a drink of water. It might be you roll over, and then it's like, oh, fuck, I'm gonna roll back over. I'm gonna start there. I don't need to have all the answers right now. But I know that I I know that I'm willing, and that I really love that piece. Because if we go back to the clunky start, to the sex we had, I didn't know coming and sitting on your lap and beginning to stroke you was going to lead to Epic fucking sex. I just knew it was sex we've ever had, apparently, the best 69 of my life. But I didn't know that that was gonna lead to that. I just knew it was the next step. Yes, I just knew that was the truth of the moment. Mm. Yeah, and so yeah, sometimes we don't know. In a gritty, clunky moment, this can be insects. This can be just in a moment of tension in our relationship, we we don't know how it's going to unfold or how we're going to get through. And I we, I said that earlier, like in that moment when we're having the clunky sex, it was like, Ah, this feels fucking hard, and we don't want to be here and like, fuck, like, ah, like, why is this always so hard? Like, it just felt like, how do we get out of this? We just had a great day. We were meant to just be able to fuck really easily. Like, thought, we were thought, I thought we'd done all the right things. Like, why is this happening? And so in those moments, sometimes the air can feel so heavy, and it can feel so tense and it can feel so gritty that you're like, how do I get out of this? How do we find our way out? Yeah, you're not meant to know like it's, it's, it's, moment by moment. The only thing that you can do is practice. How do I open myself back up to this human in front of me? Yes, do I turn back over? Can I take a big breath? Can I release the walls I've got around my heart? Can I opt out of trying to win in this moment and make him or her feel wrong, like all of these micro decisions slowly open the moment back up, and when, when we're devoted to opening the moment back up, suddenly, so much becomes possible. So much becomes possible. Yes, the sex that felt like, you know this is not going to be possible. Tonight. We're going to go to bed angry. Oh, suddenly we're having the best sex of our life. Amazing like so much becomes possible when we're devoted to keeping our hearts open and staying, staying and holding and being there together in that moment, totally. I feel like we could complete the episode. There. I do. There was one thing that I wanted to say, and I was wondering, oh, this is I want to tie this up. I'm not going to open this because it'll be a can of worms. If you get your if you get your teeth into it, teeth stuck into this, but there is this societal belief that sex is just this separate thing to everything else in your relationship. It's like, oh, we're gonna have sex, then everything outside of sex is completely irrelevant. So sex is this, like little compartmentalized thing, like, Oh, cool. Doesn't matter what's happened outside of it, but we should be able to just step into the bedroom and have sex. Sex like, like you, you say foreplay begins the moment sex ends, and love like, sex is a texture. Eros is the thing that moves us. Like, it's our life force, it's our energy, it's how we move and relate with the world. So you when we start to look at sex as this separate little thing in our separate, compartmentalized thing, we're not allowing it to actually be this beautiful, living, breathing experience that happens through us and our relationship at all times. Yeah, and also, the second part to this is that society gives us these movies and this whole industry called porn that really bastardizes what sex can be. And I'm not saying that. You know some of the beautiful scenes on some of these movies is hot and heavy, but they aren't a true representation of what sex is. Porn is not a true representation of what sex is. And I've watched a lot of porn in my life. I've been and watched a lot of it throughout my teens and my 20s. And I was like, got this idea that sex just, oh, wow, you can just fuck like that. And it's like, happens all in five minutes. You do all this different stuff, and then boom. And then it's, like it's compartmentalized and put in this little box, and you've got that look in your eye, like, let me fucking, let me talk about, how about this? But realistically, like, there's those two like, that societal narrative pushed through the movies and through the porn industry feeds this idea that sex is just a separate thing, not this, not this thing that moves through us in our relationship at all times. Yes, and I'll close up with this, that that all of that porn movies, this, this Miss misrepresentation, because that would what it is misrepresentation of the totality of what sex and intimacy truly is can leave a lot of couples, and I especially see this for women. Can leave a lot of women feeling like there's something wrong. Just like when we had this conversation with this woman and full spectrum woman, there was an energy of, I just feel like we should be able to get into the bedroom and be really passionate. And I feel like this energy is still coming up, and we're like, doing something wrong, and it's like, no, that's, that's life that's relating, yeah, and that is sex, like, sex, literally, like I said before, when you get when you're naked beside someone, and you're especially when you're not just, like, wanting to be physical. Penetrated when you actually want to feel each other's hearts. You can't ignore anything you are going to be faced with, anything that needs to be met and alchemized in your union to be able to physically connect and to be able to fuck, and that can be clunky and gritty. And, you know, take time and yeah, I just don't want couples to ever feel like because things like, Yes, I truly believe this is what I'll end with. I truly believe sex can get better and better and better and better and better. Along you with someone, I feel that in our relationship 100% it get it's better and better and better and better. But it's only because we are willing to be with the clunky. We are willing to be with the gritty. We are willing to meet every fucking thing that shows up in our life and any in our intimacy. And when we get into the bedroom, we meet it, and we don't shy away from it, and we lean the fuck in Yeah, we do. We're not holding this expectation of like, oh, the sex can get better. But that means that we always just have to be so in love and always want to fuck each other, and always just like, as soon as we're naked, just be ready to be penetrated. And like, ready, no, that's not the truth. That is not the truth. And Epic sex, epic orgasms, epic intimacy comes through devotion to being with all that is that's not always pretty. Amen. Wow. Anything else? No, I think this is a really, really important conversation, and I'm really glad that you know, I love that we have stories that make this real. I think it's one thing to talk about all this sort of stuff, but, yeah, I want you guys to know that we're not, we're not doing this just for research, either, like, where this is our lived experience of like, deepening through sex and finding the finding the the oneness, finding the pleasure through this, not bypassing it or disengaging. Like, it really is, like, like, I don't know, there's a devotional aspect to to a relationship. When you are with the clunkiness, it's like, Hey, this is, I don't know how this is going to work out, but I reckon we got this, and you've got, like, there's this, there's a level of belief. Like, you really got to believing in the love that you and your partner share, and, like, really start to believe in you, in yourself, and what you guys can, can, can truly create. That's what I always come back to. I'm like, This is fucking Meg O'Neill, my wife. This is the woman that stood by me and has loved me through all of the hardest fucking shit I've ever had to fucking share and be with, like, a little bit of clunkiness before. Of course, she's gonna stick with me through this. Of course, this is gonna be okay. Of course, we got this all right, take a deep breath and let's go like you'd be surprised. How how amazing it is when you actually believe in your capacity to be with the clunkiness and the uncertainty that comes with finding your way through deeper sexual experiences. Yes, don't wish your partnership or your intimacy had less clunkiness. Wish for the capacity and the power to move through the clunkiness, yeah, to navigate the clunkiness, because the clunkiness will never go anywhere. That's it, yeah, yeah. And through it, you you create deeper awareness, and you gather incredible data, and you learn how to not only love each other better, but receive love better, yes, which is definitely my journey. So thanks so much my love. Love the clunkiness and the craziness 69 Yeah, yeah. I want to try and try more of that. I've put on, I've put on Instagram stories before, and majority of people agree with me, yeah, I don't. I'm a 69 guy from way back. Okay, let's, let's do more, I think for me. And I'm realizing through this conversation, it's it's just, it's more the the context of 69 and it can't be early in the sexual experience. It has to be like, well and truly in and I have to be like, yeah. And I also it can't be in a sexual experience where I just want to be dominated and I just want to like, you know, because there is, there's a truth. I love. It happens when it happens. So true. You can't plan a six, a really solid 69 it can't be planned. You can't plan a 69 that's it. Is there any sexual positions you can plan? Nah, I don't think it is. Oh, I feel like we've got a few go tos, but 69 that's one of those ones that just it needs to arrive out of the out of nowhere, and all of a sudden, you're like, Whoa, we're 69 and whoa, this is happening. It's happening. Well, let's go. And I hate this. Let's stop. I'd love to, I'm excited to feel like we're. We become parents, if our sex has to become more structured because of having a child, not not more structured, as in, like, we're having sex now it's time you lose, yeah. But I mean, like, do we have to be like, Okay, a little strategic, yes. And this hour here, okay, we, we'd like to, you know, get yourself warmed up do a few stretches, because that hour we are having sex, and if we've got clunkiness to get through, we need to, you know, we need to get through it. Yeah, okay. We love you beautiful humans. Thank you so much. We'll talk to you soon. Thanks to our non official, unofficial sponsors, thank you do our Gucci the Yeah, the greatest kombucha ever made. Love. You all big love, yo, yo, yo. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of sex, love and everything in between. Now, if you'd like to stay connected with Meg and I, you can head on over to Instagram and follow me at the Jacob O'Neill. And where can people find you? Lover, at B dot, Meg, dot. O amazing. And, yeah, guys, check out the show notes for all other information in regards to what we've got coming up. And yeah, we're super, super grateful that you guys for taking the time to listen in to this podcast. If you do have any topics or any questions like I said, hit us up on Instagram and we'll see what we can do. Apart from that, have a beautiful, beautiful rest of your day. Thanks for being here. Big, big. Love you.