Ep 79: Learning to love each other better

How do you love your partner better? 

Meg and Jacob O'Neill dive into why knowing each other's love language isn't enough. They share how staying curious about each other's needs and desires creates a foundation for a strong, long-lasting relationship filled with intimacy and closeness.

Meg and Jacob discuss their experiences with long-distance love, gender roles, and the power of open communication. They reveal how small acts, like understanding your partner's favorite meal or how they prefer things organized, can significantly enhance your connection. It's about truly listening and valuing each other's unique preferences.

Through stories of tackling household chores and cooking, they show how stepping out of comfort zones and encouraging each other's growth deepens their bond. Jacob learns to let go of control, while Meg finds new ways to show appreciation.

Meg and Jacob also challenge the idea of rigid formulas in relationships, advocating for flexible frameworks that allow for growth and change. They emphasize attunement, presence, and living in the moment to foster deep connections.

They also riff off on:

• Meg O'Neill discusses her experience mowing the lawn for the first time, despite never having done it before.
• Jacob O'Neill acknowledges his control issues, admitting he's a "little bit of a control freak" and learning to surrender some control in relationships.
• They share stories about their upbringing and how it has influenced their attitudes towards cleanliness and organization.
• Meg feels undermined by Jacob's constant redoing of her work, leading her to feel like she can't do anything right and that it's not worth trying.
• Jacob and Meg discuss food preferences and cooking styles, with Jacob preferring simple dishes like steak and vegetables.
• Meg O'Neill highlights the danger of relying too heavily on labels and formulas in relationships, and instead advocates for attunement and presence.

and many more.

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Transcript

2:32

Music, yo, yo, yo. Lovers, welcome, welcome, welcome to sex, love and everything in between. We're the O'Neills. You're here with Meg and Jacob, and this is the place we have really uncensored conversations about sex, intimacy and relationships. We're super excited. You're here. Enjoy this episode. Hi, my man, hey my woman. Hey, glorious people, both men and women. Maybe a dog is listening as well. Hey, lovers, hey, it's actually Jacob. Here. You're only listening this entire episode. Remember when we first got the podcast equipment and you were just really into singing? Nothing's changed. I'm still really into single when, whenever you'd put the headphones on, it would just be like, you just, yeah, I've been watching a lot of reels from Modern Family. I feel like I'm a bit like cam, the one of the gay dudes into expressive being. He's expressive. I love it. I would love for this to turn into this, like, yeah, this podcast concept to evolve into a musical. Would you sex love and everything in between the musical? Yeah, would it? Would it be us still in conversation about just sex life and just think I take it solo. Yeah, I'd support you. I'd produce, yes, direct, God, yeah, I don't think you'd get me back though. I think I would become a method actor, and I would stay in character for the rest of my life. Oh, good, but that's not what we're here for today. We're not here to talk about my hopes and dreams at all. That's not at all the topic today. Let's put that to the side and you want to banter about anything else before we dive in. Or it's probably been a few weeks. It's been a minute since people have heard us together. Yeah, I think we've had a few guest episodes. Yeah. The podcast has been humming along. It's become this, like constant in our lives. So when we have a few weeks where we have some guest episodes, it can feel a little, um, it's like, oh, what's what's been happening? Yeah, we don't actually talk between, no, I've been away. You have been away a lot. I have, yeah, which has actually been great for us. It's been incredible. It's been incredible for you. Yeah, it really has. You've been away even since I got pregnant. You have been away so much, probably, like six or seven times. Yeah, you probably, you've been away probably every month. Oh, yeah, at least, if not twice a month. Yeah, yeah. And I am someone that can, if I had my choice, I would spend every single moment of every single day with you, I think. And I've had to, I've had to, like, obviously, not do that. Haven't had the option to do that. It's different to when we work from home, like, it's like, those that's really important to me being able to go away because, like, I don't go to an office and hang out with other people, so if I'm not doing those sort of things regularly, I'm just at home in the office by myself, and you're the only other person in the house. So, yeah, can become quite consumed. I can feel quite consumed by my home life, home life, aka my home wife, yeah, yeah. Is that what you've actually been going out to all your other wives otherwise, yeah. But no, it's been really good, because if you're not away, or say there's like, a weekend where you're not away, I would just assume that we're hanging out all weekend long. I won't make other plans sometimes. Yes, that's true. Where this it's been so beautiful because I've been, yeah, really, just like leaning into my sisters more, and it's so much easier now where we live, because we were living quite isolated. So, yeah, I've just been loving that Palm Beach has been great for your My aliveness, yeah, your your community spirit, yes, your social spirit. Uh huh. I've loved that also realized, even though I love this is one of my favorite things about our partnership. I love how much you do for me. And I love I have long gone is like the independent woman part of me that's like, I don't need a man. Like, I love needing a man. I need a man. I love outsourcing, doing this shit. I ain't doing that. I am the best outsourcer to men even, like, when we're at vision you're a vision quest and I was, like, part of the vision quest support team, yeah, and you were obviously on the mountain. I didn't have access to you, and you'd put my swag up and put, like, the tarp over my swag, yes. And then I really wanted that all to be done when you came off the mountain before we left. But I was like, I potentially could work out how to do it and struggle by myself. Could definitely put the swag down by myself. I didn't want to, but I was like, I'm just gonna ask another man, like, a man will like, love helping me. I just know I've come to learn that about men, that men love being wanted and needed and and and love adding value in that way. So, yeah, I asked a beautiful man there jack, and he was just like, stoked to help me out. And it was like, so beautiful. There's an art to that, obviously, not to take advantage of a man's, you know, wanting to help obviously, no, yeah. Do you think I do take advantage? Do I take advantage of that? Maybe I take advantage of sometimes I think you might take advantage of you every now and then shock in your face then, no, I think you're very art. You're You're very artful at it, like you are very conscious of when you are, like, Ah, this is something I can I genuinely don't want to do that. Yeah, one, and there's someone here that would want to do it for me. Yes, that's the you know. And there's a difference between, like, enabling, you know that part of you, versus actually, like using it to create, like, you know, meaning totally and when you've been you're away, like last month, and you were, like, really at capacity in life, and before You our grass needed mowing. And I was like, you're away. And I was like, I really want you to come back and know that you don't have to do that job. I really want you to come back and, like, look at the lawn and it be mowed, and you just be like, oh, like, one less thing to do. I don't have to think about that anymore. That doesn't have to take up space in my my mind and my head. So I really wanted that. And at first I was like, I'm gonna outsource this to another man. Like I was gonna call like Jack brazier, or like someone in our life to come and mow the lawn. Because I know there would be many men in our life that would knew that you're away, you know, obviously I'm pregnant, all of these things that they would have really, like, stepped up and done that totally, and then over, like, you're away for a few days. And over those few days, I was like, actually, I think I can find do this. You know what? You know what? I don't need a man. I was like, I think I'm actually gonna try and mow a lawn. And I've never mowed a lawn in my life. I grew up with my mum always mowing the lawn. My mom and dad are still together, but my mum loved my mum loved my mum had, like, a whole mowing outfit. She had shoes. She took pride in mowing the lawn, but, like, that's just I get it now after mowing my first lawn. But yeah, and sorry. Our friend Susie was here. I don't think I would have done it unless she was here, because she helped me work out how to start the mower and do it. And then she was just hanging out as I was mowing the lawn, and I'm so fucked, it was so satisfying. And then I was mowing the front lawn, and it was so fucking hilarious, because our friend Kristen arrived, and she didn't know she was coming for a sleepover, and she. Didn't know that I was mowing the lawn, and here I am, like, I would have been, like, probably six and a half months seven pregnant, seven months pregnant, and like, my belly was out. I'm mowing the front lawn, and she's pulling into our driveway. She's like, What the fuck what is happening? But yeah, so moral of the story is that I've really, it's been fun having you away for my friendships and deepening my friendships, but also realizing how capable I am. Yeah, because that's something I maybe don't really allow myself to expand into, and I can be a little bit of a control freak with things as well. Like, I can, like, want to do everything, yeah. Like, I think if you were home and I said, I want to mow the lawn, you'd be like, oh, like, I'll do it. That's my job. Pregnant or not, I could not watch that. That would make me feel sick. What about what part? It just wouldn't be right it just in my head, in my like, I don't care how traditional or how old school or how gender specific that is, I do not care. I would just say, No, I've got it. I've got to do it. I couldn't. What would I be doing? Sitting down and just watching No, I couldn't. No, there's no way on earth I grew up. I kind of like that. Like, I don't why? I don't want, I don't want to be out there. Yeah, doing I like that. We have, you know, there's certain roles in the home that you do, and I don't have to think about it all totally, I don't know if there's things that I do, and you don't have to think, even if you did do them, I think I'd still think I'd still think about whether you're doing them right or not, and then I'd have to double check, because I have control issues. Well, we're gonna call we're potentially calling this episode from control to surrender. Maybe you should take some notes. Maybe I should definitely learn a thing or two from this episode. No, it's okay. I'm not a control freak. You do say you are all the time, but you're but I don't feel that from you. That doesn't I don't feel that like, and maybe you just do a really good job behind your internal landscape. Like, yeah, on fire when I'm doing certain things. But it is, and that's my but I feel you, NaVi, you've, you've gotten good at navigating that. Yeah, I'm very good at owning my that, that that need to change things, or that need for things to be it's done a certain way, done a certain way, yeah, and I think so many couples would resonate with that, like, especially if you're sharing a home with someone, and, you know, sharing household tasks, like, there's usually one person in the relationship that likes things done a very particular way that is not made. What's that mean on Instagram? And it's like, Sure, it's like one person. What is the one person stacks the dishwasher like a something architect, and the other you're like a Swedish architect, or like something and the other person stacks it like a wild badger searching through the bins for food. I've gotten waved I'm actually really proud of myself. In the last probably, like 18 months, I feel like I have really stepped up my housewife game. Tell me more that was you raised at the end. Tell me more that was not like, I agree that was not, I appreciate that. That was that question of, What do you mean? Hey, celebrate my inner heart. You did rock up to the front door with banana bread fully when I got home. So you have been incredible, incredible, and I'm better at cleaning, and I feel like I'm really good at cleaning the kitchen now, and like, taking care, especially since we've moved here. I feel like I'm way tidier and cleaner. And like, yeah, definitely. I actually don't feel like you're agreeing permission to speak openly. Yeah, just the last two mornings in the frying pan. That's just been too much, really, yeah, that's just the other and that sucks, because when you've been away, I've been so on, like, when you're away, I cooked. A woman in our community that we met at the dog park just gave birth, and I, like, made two meals for her and made banana bread for her, and made meals for our home, and cleaned up and delivered those meals. And I just did so much when you're away, and then when you got home, I was so tired, so I said I was gonna cook for you, and then I did it. And then I, yeah, I. So, but I would say I'm a great overall. That was just, that was me just being a bit cheeky. But yeah, besides the last two mornings, every other morning, you've I think it's like one of those things, you got to let your partner learn those things as well. You can't expect your partner to just be good at everything you're good at, or expect them to care about service, yes. Service, your nervous, you know your comfort, service, your comfort levels always Yeah. And you can respect each other, but you have to be able to like, share, without projection. What, what's important to you? Yeah. And one of those ways you got really good at that, because you and this was something that I would communicate earlier in our relationship, when I realized that because you did pretty much everything in the house, yeah, like, I wasn't cooking, I wasn't cleaning, I wasn't doing anything. And then I got to a point where you were like, I don't even know if you expressed this, but we I didn't even know how it came forth. I think it was, I actually do remember it was when we're in kite street, and I just couldn't walk through the walk in wardrobe to get to the bathroom, and I was just like, this has to this, has to this. Something has to change. I'm gonna go. I'm actually gonna lose my I'm gonna flip my lid, guys. I can be just like, feral. It's, it's, but it's just like, it's so polarizing in what way to compared to like, I'm like, Oh, I have, because I grew up in like, a like, we grew I grew up in a house with six people, like, 432, then, like, we had one bathroom, and we all shared the same bathroom. And like, we, like, we were never allowed to leave our clothes anywhere, like was always put your clothes in the in the washing basket or put them away. And then I worked in a clothes store, so I was, like, hyper pedantic about how, you know, my clothes are folded and put away, and I like to keep things clean and tidy. And then it was like, you'd never, it's like you'd never, ever folded a piece of clothing that could be some tooth or I grew up in a house where my mom would bring me breakfast in bed as a teenager before school, and like I would, she'd ask us to clean our room, and I'd throw everything under my bed or In my cupboard, and she'd be like, Oh, me, like my mom would do everything for me. Yeah, I don't think I love my mom for it. I don't think it supported me to have great life skills. Yeah, because I was ironing, like as a 15 year old, I don't my own clothes. And, yeah, I was very particular about the things. I think that also comes back to like, we never, like, it was real big thing to have, like, a nice like, I was, I loved, I feel like we weren't poor, but we weren't rich. So to have nice things was really, whenever I got something nice, I was really, really, like, it was, became a really important thing to me. Yeah, so, like, if I got a new T shirt, I was like, wow. Or if I got something new, it was like, this is or I'm gonna look after this, yes, yeah, whereas not all your siblings would be like that, no, yeah, no, that's just me, actually, yeah, it is just you, yeah? But I, yeah, I just really learned that, and then you were the complete opposite, and it was like, I didn't want to make you feel wrong, right? I didn't want to be like, you're you're wrong for doing doing it this way. But I also didn't know how to like, hey, like, this is important to me, yes, and what I would witness early in our relationship is that you would just redo things, yeah, like, even when I tried to help around the house, you would just redo them, yes. And so it got to a stage where I just almost, like, tapped out, so undermining. And I just never felt, I always felt like anything I did was going to be wrong, so I may as well not try. And you were always going to redo everything that I did, from like hanging the clothes on the line, because I wasn't hanging them right, or folding your clothes again, or, you know, stacking the dishwasher, or washing the dishes, like all the things, you just redo them. So there was part of me that was like, What's the point? He can just do them anyway? And so then I don't even like using a dishwasher because I don't like how it washes the stuff. So, like, that's a little No, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not in the healthy category either. Like, it's this, you use a dishwasher now, yeah, no, oh no, yeah. I'd only use it if someone else is in the kitchen with me stacking it. Yeah. Um, but yeah. So that was our relationship for quite a few years, where you just, like, carried the weight of everything around the house, pretty much like I would cook, but like you did, you did a whole lot. And then I remember that really came out a few years ago, maybe three three years ago, when you. Yeah, I was, I was sharing that pain of like, hey, I really want to support us, and I really want to show up in the house. And every time I do, I feel like I don't get it right, and every time I do, like, I don't see the point in being able to do that totally and that was really powerful, because then you got to then understand that, I think that was an invitation for you to release a little bit of control. Yeah, definitely. I'm just remember, like, when I when I'd watch you, like, he'd be like, I'm gonna cook dinner, or I'll just help you get some stuff out of the kitchen. I'll just chop the onions. Then I'll just, yeah, and I'll just, yeah, and I'll start just like, I'll put this low cooker. I'll just see, I'll do the oil. And then just like, I'm like, Oh, I'm just, you're like, slowly taking over. And I'm like, Oh, look how beautiful this is. It's helping me. That's because that's a that's a big piece that I realized and I brought to you. I was like, You, I can feel you want. And you would sometimes joke and say, like, oh, I always felt like I would marry, like a house, like a like a woman that, just like, would bake muffins and be in the like, you know, like a very traditional housewife. And I would get really offended by that, because I would be like, Hey, I I want to try and be that for you, but you won't even fucking let me. Like, it's not even a safe environment for it, for either, for me to even try and be that I don't have space to try to do that, to develop that. Like, it's like, I just expect, you know, it's like, if you can't do it perfectly, then don't do it at all. Yes, just so conditional. Yeah, it's just so unfair. And then also the other piece was like, when you like, I like learning how to support you in the that, like cultivation of that. Like you'd cook something and I'd eat it, but then I wouldn't comment on it, and you would be like, well, and you would always say to me, your meals are in both my top five meals I've ever eaten and my bottom five. It's either really good or really real dick sometimes, yeah, but I didn't realize how much that mattered to me, until our friend Jack lived with us last year. He lived with us for three or four months. And Jack would come home from work and he would be like, Meggie, I'm craving your banana bread. Can you make me that banana bread you make? I've just been thinking about it all day, and I would be like, yes, like, and then I would make, like, this Bolognese that he loved, and he would just sit and he would eat, and he'd be, like, he was just so expressive about it, like, this is the best Bolognese I've ever eaten. You're so good at making this, and I just wanted to feed him. It's just like, I'll make more of an 100. I'll make bolognese. What else do you need? Like, I that just helped, like, appreciation. And this is true for any any part of someone. When something is appreciated, we want to bring that part of us more. And I really, if it's something you're cultivating as well, something that you may not be that confident in totally, and that was something that I really expressed to you, like, Hey, I would actually love to feel more of your appreciation around like my food. And you were like, well, you're gonna have to cook something better. You're like, well, I just don't like someone because the stuff that you love, I was like, Okay, well, what do you love? Like, I want to cook things you love. You're like, steak and veggies, yeah. I'm like, that's boring to cook. But then I got then I was really intentional about, okay, instead of just making things that I love or I love cooking, I'm, yeah, I'm gonna start cooking more of the things you love, and be intentional about that. And you were, you did become very appreciative. Yeah, I'm not even a jack level of appreciative, but, yeah, but he's a saucy guy. He likes saucy food, like he likes to sleep when it wasn't cooking. But how about when I'm cooking you steak and veggies? Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, yeah, I'm grateful, that I'm not like, I don't turn it in like, it's like, I like that. This is good, yeah, good food. I'm not going to turn it into a It's not like a drama show. When I have asked for it, you have, yeah, no, I have extra. You have been more intentional about expressing, like, Yeah, I'm I like foods that aren't as sauce. I'm not a sauce. Yeah, I know. But for me that was, like, there was a few meals that you made where he was, like, really expressive, and I was like, Well, I've eat them, and I just don't genuinely like, they're not, they're. It. I've dead on my first pick. But I love when you cook steak and you make vegetables like roast potatoes, pumpkin, yeah, zucchini and broccoli and then that on a plate. Happy Days, you're a simple guy, yeah, yeah. Mm, hmm. Okay. I I'm actually making spaghetti. Are you still gonna make it? Whatever? So do we talk about the chicken soup and the chicken soup saga? Because I, I, oh god, I also love that we were going to talk about something totally different on today's episode. Oh God, um, remember how we had a whole episode about how I was making chicken soup regularly, and because I thought, for me, chicken soup represented like, like, nurturing and nourishing and and that just like was that just feels like such a loving meal for for me, even like the woman in our community that just had a baby just made her like, delicious chicken soup, what I see is delicious, delicious chicken soup. And what was it we were talking about on that episode that you'd come in and you were, like, resent. It was about resentment. Do you remember? Yeah, I came in, I can't remember you were making chicken soup. And I was just like, Why? Why do you think that's what I want? Do you even ask me if I like chicken soup? I haven't told you that I like it or not, but you haven't. Dare you. Dare you. I think I came in. I was like, I won't have it. I'll just have a steak or something. I was like, Yeah, I'm not having what you're cooking. I'm gonna have something else. Because my internal dialog was like, look at what a beautiful housewife I am. And like, making winter Chicken Soup for my husband. And you're like, fuck you. All of that was internal. You weren't expressing that, which was part of the issue. It's hard. This is all part of like, you've got to be able to laugh, otherwise you'll just cry. Or you do both, like you do there's like, this is like, classic, nice guy too. It's like, oh, you're doing a nice thing for me. I can't, I don't want to give you negative feedback. I don't want to criticize you, but I also don't love chicken soup. So how do I actually appreciate what you the the action that you're taking and then give you healthy feedback around, okay? Like, next time don't make chicken soup, make what I want. How do you do that? I suggest doing it in that way. There's like, oh, like, thank you so much my love. You know what else I love to eat? You know what I'd love? I really love this. Yeah, and be like, how can we give our partner better information so they can love us in the ways that we desire to be loved? Yes, because underneath me, cooking the chicken soup and, like, the banana bread and wanting to be appreciated, was this part of me that wanted to serve you. It's like, yeah. It's like this inner housewife that wanted, wanted, wanted, wanted you to be well fed, and wanted you to feel like nourished and Yeah, and so me, but I just didn't have the information on how I thought I was doing that right, yeah, but not having the right information on how to do that really well, this is where you can't just say, what's your love language? Like, oh, cool. Acts of Service, all right, I'm gonna make you dinner, and then you make food, but then it's like, oh, that's not actually the food that I love. So it's like, not actually hitting the spot, yeah? It's kind of like, okay, physical touch is your love language, alright, let me just touch you there. Oh, I hate that. Yeah, it's like, cool. Like, that's not. How would you like to be touched? Yeah, work out that information and then provide it to your partner. What do I love to eat? Oh, cool. I'm going to share that information with you so you know how to love me better through the, you know, the the action that, yes, like, really fills my cup. And when we had that conversation after Jack lived with us, and I was like, Oh, that really fed a part of me, like that, that level of appreciation, and I'd, I'd love to feel more of that from you. And then it came through that you hated every single one of my meals. No, it came through that you Yeah, it wasn't that you weren't appreciative of me cooking. It was that, you know, you you'd prefer different meals. So I was like, okay, like, tell me what you'd love more of. And that was then great information. And, yeah, yeah. And I think it's, it's, this is something we are, like. Phenomenal at and we have, you have been phenomenal at this skill for a while. I have gotten there. Yes, do you know what I'm gonna say? Go for it. Do you know what I'm gonna say? Say it, not taking things personally. Yes, like our ability, even right now, to laugh at what we've moved through and to like, see the lightness in it. It doesn't mean that it can feel heavy and gritty. It doesn't feel heavy and gritty at the time. But to be able to like, yeah, to be able to be like, Oh, you don't like some of my cooking, that's fine, like that. I'm not going to make that mean that you're a dick. Or like, I'm like, whatever, yeah, you know. And if we are making that mean something in our relationship, it's so beautiful to just be able to express that, yeah, 100% and the like, the little like, there's just a little tweaks in the way that we communicate that allow it to be an open an open dialog, rather than a pointed, sort of, like a pointed finger, of like, you versus this is, this is what's here. Yeah. So, for instance, like with, you know, if there's a way to stack something in the dishwasher that I think is the right way to do it, yes, and you're, you're doing it a different way. I don't go over in like, huff and puff and change it. I say, hey lover, can I show you something real quick that I think may be helpful? Yes, and I think what I've learned in our relationship is that you're trying to, like, whisper something to me that what I've learned in our relationship is to not take that personally, like I've learned one of the ways that I can love you is to listen in those moments and to like because the way I don't give a fuck how I stuck the dishwasher, but to actually listen and be like, Ah, you prefer all the forks here, and you prefer the nine and that, okay, amazing. I actually that would take me maybe a few extra seconds, but I love this man, and this would make this man feel really loved. And I'm gonna do that. The piece is like, how do you bring it to your partner with with open with open dialog, and be vulnerable. The vulnerable vulnerable enough to let them know that it actually is important to you. Yeah, so that dishwasher thing is okay, that's important to me, because when I unpack it, it means that that cup, when it's stacked sideways, it's not full of water, or the knives and forks are all separate songs, just grab them all, boom, and place them straight into the straight into the cutlery drawers. Like, cool. There's these things that like they're important to me, and then I can explain why they're important to me. And like, understanding someone's reason for why they like something the way they like it is so powerful. And it's like, same sort of thing with the foods. Like, hey, I love you cooking for me, and here's what I like to eat like that's important information that makes things so much easier. It takes the guesswork out of it and allows both of us to be fed by the you know, the way that we love each other. I've just remembered another meal that you love of mine right now. Which one my slow cooked Massaman curry, I do like that? Yes, sorry, I do like that, yes, sorry, I love it, yes. Oh, my God, can you please make that for me? God, I would love Maggie. Well, I actually am planning on making slow cooking it tomorrow morning. Yeah, perfect. I would love that, not on the podcast. On the podcast, I do enjoy your Masamune curry and the way that you cook the rice. Very, very good. That is, thank you. I just don't like the word delicious either. I think that's the funny about words delicious. It just doesn't I don't like the way that it rolls off my tongue. I don't like, Yeah, very good. Is a statement that I like to use or that's tastes real good. Yeah, you're not an overly expressive man. I am. It's just I use a different medium. Sorry, that is wrong. That's you're a very you're a very expressive man, yeah. What's his medium? Use? Dance song. Okay, the next love a meal of mine. I would like you to dance it. Dance, dancing, some kind of creative expression. Perfect. I'll do that. I'd much rather that than say the word delicious. Here I am in my truth. I'm looking forward to that, yeah, well, I guess you'll know whether I like it or not. Okay. What else do you want to talk about? Well, we've really, that's a 34 minute intro. We're ready to talk about the next Oh, I think that's funny. I think it'd be cool to talk about, like, white, like, just while we're on this topic. I don't know what this podcast is gonna be called, but that, like, that actual, that what we're talking about is, like, for me, is like, how do we actually under, like, understanding your partner? There's so much focus on polarity and, like, a lot of stuff in the relationship space that people talk to and like, we've been together nearly 10 years, so we've got, like, a longer term experience of being together, but if you're in a relationship, having things that you can understand about each other and be able to honor in each other. Like, this is like, Next Level getting to know each other. There's like, Okay, I know what you do. I know you know what your likes and dislikes are. But like, how do I do? I know how to communicate, how to, how to how I like to be loved, and can I communicate how I like to be loved with openness and understanding, and be have the the vocabulary to be able to help you or be able to show you that this is this is important to me, and then I am I receptive to the information My partner brings me on how they would like to be loved. Yes, I think that's a very important piece, and that takes practice. And then once I've given the information, can I trust and stay open to receiving it and allow my partner to develop in that area, rather than just expecting them to, like, be perfect, yeah? Like, you've communicated about the dishwasher once, and then you're just like, you know, stalking around the kitchen as he unstucks the dishwasher or stacks the dishwasher, and you're just like, they're not doing it right, yeah? And, and, like, cheap, cheap shots in relationships. Like people think, oh, yeah, it's fun to have banter and this sort of stuff. And that's true. But if you're like, if you take the piss a little too much in these realms, like, when someone's like, this can be really vulnerable for someone who is developing, whether it's, you know, stacking the dishwasher, or someone that's starting to, like, explore another, you know, another skill, and they're learning and they're a beginner. Like, imagine what it would be like to be a child, if you saw a child learning something and you started making fun of them for you kept on criticizing and criticizing and criticizing. Like, that's essentially what you're doing to your partners, like beginner part in the one that's learning that needs encouragement, not critical analysis, yes, and I think that's super important. I I like to think it was like, Oh, cool. Like, this is you, you talk about this, especially, like, with, like, celebrating the little things that men get, right? It's like, we can apply this to loving each other in this relationship. It's like, if you are, you know, showing up in an area of life that you, you know, wanting to develop in like I get to support you in that. I get to cheer you on. I get to really see you and your willingness, and rather than just see whether or not you're doing it the way I need you to do it, at a level that you know is which is just caked in expectation. I was gonna say, gonna say something, and they got distracted. The baby was moving so much distant, a wild amount. Oh, you can probably see it. That's so cool. Um, I was gonna curiosity, like Curiosity is one of the greatest things we can bring to our relationship. And like you said, a long term partnership especially, and you said this too, that there is so much focus on like polarity and passion and all these things which, yes are important, so important. And yes, is what a lot of people are craving in longer term partnership, is like, you know, the passion and the intimacy and the connection again, but that means shit, if you're just trying to paste, you know, a formula of polarity, or just these, like, Oh, I'm going to ask her, I'm going to initiate. I'm going to like, if you're just going to paste that on a relationship where there's no curiosity, you're not able to communicate what it is you desire or want. You're not open to receiving you know how your partner wants to be loved better. You're not open to the information you bring them. There isn't a shared value of understanding each other better and understanding how to love each other better. Like, that's like the foundational piece to deep, long term partnership. Yeah, if we lose that curiosity and just expect our partners always going. Be the same. Yeah, like we just consistently need to be bringing this sense of curiosity. And one of my favorite questions, and we ask each other this regularly, is like, how, how can I love you better? What can I do to love you better? And that's just such a stunning question, because sometimes we just assume that we're doing the things to make our partner feel loved, or maybe, maybe not. Maybe we just, like, haven't even thought of that. We're just living our life and expecting them to do different things or wanting more from them, but we're not actually sitting with the question like, wow, how am I doing at loving my partner right now? Wow, have I actually gotten curious as to what would make them feel loved and appreciated and supported. Can actually just ask them that question and and then, you know, devote myself to really loving them in that way, like, if that was truly just the one thing you did in your relationship consistently over and over and over again, like, boom, boom, boom. How can I love you better? There's a, there's a direct questioning there of, like, how can I love you better? Not, What do you need to feel more masculine? Or, what do you need to feel more feminine? Or, you know, I know you've got anxious attachment style. So what do you need to feel safe? Or, you know, these formula bros, it's, they're just, they're basic. They're basic, and they serve a place, you know, I, I just came out of a facilitator train. We taught, like, deep, deep, you know, structuring around the archetypes, and it's beautiful, but that, you know, they're only there to facilitate, you know, the surface under surface level understanding. So you can dive deep. They're only there to, like, give you, give you, sort of a starting point. And rather than, and this is what I see, and that just drives me up the fucking wall. Is like, especially I see it in I don't work with women, so I see it more in men is that they take the formula and then they copy and paste, and they copy and paste, and paste, and they copy and paste, and they copy and paste, and they think that this is going to get them where they want to go, when an actual fact is just a protective mechanism that they use to stop themselves from ever getting hurt and ever actually having to open up and expose themselves to the potential of rejection, fear of judgment, fear of failure, fear of not being good enough. But the thing is that a relationship is going to shine a light on those parts regardless. And it's that is the gift of a relationship that is actually serving you know, the depths of your journey here on Earth as a fucking living soul embodied in a body. You get the opportunity to find someone who's going to shine a light on all of the unhealed wounding from your childhood, from your upbringing, from past relationships, so that hopefully you too can together, be courageous in healing and almost loving each other, back to back to wholeness, back to the truth, which is that you are whole you always were. So fuck the formulas. Yeah, and I think the labels were you gonna say something then I just, I just really wish people understood that the, like, the the formulas are frameworks. They're not these. They're not when I say formula, I mean this, and this means that, like, I put this with this, I get this. That's not how it works. A framework is a living it's a living entity that allows you to, almost, like, take, take stock of where you're at and how you can calibrate, yeah, and you've gotta bring your presence and attunement to that framework and into the moment that you're that you're placing that framework on, yes, right? I think if, if we're, you know, if we're just putting so many labels on and formulas into our relationship, like, Oh, this is your anxious attachment coming out, or this, you're being avoidant right now in this moment, we're actually just getting so fucking caught up in the labels and the formula, and we're not actually meeting and supporting the person that is in front of us, like they it can be really supportive to understand things like, Oh, I have an anxious attachment style, and my partner has an avoidant and this is what's playing out. I think there is a time and a place for understanding that. And then there comes a time and a place to let that the fuck go in relationship, right? And to stop. I, I see women do this all the time, labeling their partner like, Oh, this is he the, you know, he's avoided. He's this, he's this. He's not masculine, right? And it's like, actually, can you, can you release him from the label and just see the human that is in front of you? And can you actually become curious as to not what the books or the teachers or whatever tell you should happen in that moment? Can you actually become curious? With him. Can you ask him questions? Have you tuned into him and asked him what he needs in that moment? What would feel most loving to him? What would feel most supportive to him, what's going on for him, what's alive, like, yeah, like dialoguing with the human in front of you instead of trying to label them. And, yeah, totally, totally, I'm just like that, that exact thing is, like, this is, this, is this is, like, this is the whole concept of our training that we did for the guys last week was like, what, where are you letting the the the formula give you a right or wrong answer. You're avoidant. That's wrong. You need to be this. You're you're you're attached. That's wrong. You need to be this versus Okay, here's a framework that's living and breathing and allows me to work with the energy that's here in this moment by attuning to what is actually required from me. I've got you. So you're saying there's a difference between between a formula and a framework correct, because the formula is like, this is right. This is wrong. A formula, like, if you think about mathematics, one plus one equals two, so that's right, one plus one does not equal three, so that's wrong. So like, but a framework, one plus one could equal 1001 plus one could equal two. One Plus it's like, it's a living, breathing entity, and it doesn't actually stay it's not fixed. A framework is not fixed. It allows you to move, you know, laterally, linearly. You move in, in cycles. And that's that, to me, is what creates true facilitation, true embodiment and attunement, which, if you look at it, you know, a relationship. It requires two people to facilitate, like deep, a deeper connection. And if you're not facilitating, or, like, if you're not being a practitioner, and you're not, like, attuning to what's right there, you're just throwing the book at it. You know, that's what we see happen in the Western world. We're just like here, what's, what's the book say, what's, you know, and it's just, it's just basic, and it's an avoidance, sometimes, of vulnerability. It's not vulnerable to sit in a moment and be in a moment of tension with your partner and then say you're just being avoidant. Right now, I'm trying to meet you, and you're being avoidant. This is your avoidant attachment. Like that's not vulnerable. What would be vulnerable in that moment would be Ow. It hurts when, when I bring my heart to you, you close, and I feel like you withdraw, and I feel like you pull away from me, and that really hurts, because my deepest desire is to feel you and to experience deeper intimacy together, like do you feel the vulnerability in that and that that's not going, you're this, you're doing something wrong in this moment. It's like you're actually letting, you're revealing, the practice of revealing it's going, it's making it about you, instead of labeling them or making it about them. That's like the, this is, like, the deepest practice I teach women, and I think the deepest thing, especially as women, that we can do that shift, can shift the dynamic of moments of tension and certain patterns that keep playing out in relationship, is to shift the attention from you're doing this. You're being avoidant, you're not masculine, you're whatever it is to actually going like, sharing the Ouch, sharing the like, what is going down in your body, yeah, and that takes such a depth of vulnerability, and that's often why we avoid that practice, yeah. And yet, that's why it is a portal to deeper intimacy. Because vulnerability is a necessary ingredient to deep intimacy. You can't have deeper intimacy without a level of vulnerability. It's just not possible. And you can't really have intimacy if you're not in your body, if you're not deeply connected to your body. And that's the thing. It's like vulnerability means that you're going to feel, yeah, you've got to feel things. And if you haven't been taught how to feel, or if you've been taught how not to that feeling is wrong, then you're going to look for the formulas to keep you safe from feeling and give you access to things without having to actually give or put it. Have any skin in the game. And we see this with, you know, the, you know, this is, this is something I've been struggling with this, you know, online and just seeing, you know, the difference between we're having conversations with our bro, Kev around this, and being like, you've got to find, you've got to be willing to stay in the, you know, with our businesses, you got to be willing to be in the arena. But at the same time, you know, trust that you know people are going to feel the depth of your work, even when there's other people out there saying the same things or trying to say the same things without the level of embodiment that we may be working with. And this is something, you know, I have many people come to me, and I've only just recently realized this is that a lot of a lot of the people that I've looked up to. Do. I've all looked at and I'm like, Oh, wow, they've got it all together. It's like, oh, these, when I've met them or I've had connections, like, Oh, this is just people who are really good at remembering information. These are not people that have gone out and deeply, deeply woven the work into their into their DNA, into their flesh, into their blood, into their bones. No, they have not. They have not like, they've literally not lived it. They've just really good at retaining information. They're just like a fucking hard drive. They're a walking USB. And it's, it lacks it lacks potency, it lacks depth, and it doesn't fucking land. And I'm not, you know, not calling people out, but like, that's there, there's, you know, there's, there's also the people that only ever, like get the wallow in their feelings and never actually develop the structural integrity to be able to communicate or translate what's going on for them and healthily communicate it with their partner. There's also that side of it, which for me, is like, what I've been working I was like, Oh, I'm feeling something. How do I not close off? How do I come in and give you a deeper understanding as to what's going on in my body without coming in and just blasting you with a whole lot of raw emotion. How do I come in and deliver it artfully? You did that really beautifully today. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Like, Oh, just come in and I share, I share the pieces that are really alive for me without it needing to be this huge, big story, it's okay. This is what's this is what's real for me. And this is where my this, and I'm, I'm learning that the more I honor, the honor, my sensitivity, my tenderness, the better able I am to receive your love. Yeah, and you don't have to force, it's not like you're trying to force his here's like, 100, 100, 100 points of love. But I'm like, fee for me to get two points, you have to give me 100 like, here's 100 and hopefully two will stick. It's like, oh, if I actually honor my sensitivity onto my intendedness and do what I need, come in and communicate with you and stay open. All of those 100 hit me, rather than just two, it's like, oh, this is how that love's always been there. I just haven't had the awareness, nor the courage to stay open, for it to land in my in my body. And I, I would say that is the practice of revealing, right? Like today you walked in and I would say, you've got to turn that heater off. My love, I'm about to boil it finish off in a second. So I just got really agitated, probably because I just shared really vulnerable, vulnerably. I don't know whether that's all right, no, I can stay okay. You could take your shirt off. Yeah? No, take your beanie. Yeah. Just for context, like, your pattern would usually be to withdraw, like, I you don't let me in when you're experiencing or in the past, you have struggled to let me in when you're experiencing some like, you know, whatever it is going on, or I have to ask you a lot, or, like, really, kind of pull it out of you, and why Today felt so special was you walked in and you just, like, I didn't ask, and you just started to just share what was alive, and that you were feeling tender and and I was sitting down, and you Just lay in my lap. That's very unusual. Never done that like, and it was just so beautiful. And immediately I just started touching you and massaging you, and, you know, just listening and then and loving on you. And, yeah, it was like you were choosing. It was like, I want you to love me right now. And that was, that is the practice of revealing it, saying, hey, like, this is, this is what's a life for me, you know? And then we can add like from that place. We can also ask, it would feel really good for me right now, if you, if you touched me, can you, can you massage me? Can you remind me everything's going to be okay? Can you reflect back my power? Can you cook for me tonight? Like, can you cook my favorite Bolognese tonight? But yeah, that, you know, I think something's landing for me here, because I speak so much about the art of revealing with women, but it's like, that is such that's a practice like men have to get so comfortable with as well. Yeah, totally. I think for men, it's like, yeah, it's like, the art of, like, I want to call it revealing. That feels far too feminine, but it is. It's like, it's this, Hey, I just wanted to let you know, yeah, this is where I'm at. And that's really great information for me to share with you, because then you know, oh, he's not like, he's not trying to avoid me. He's just like he's literally just sensitive right now. He's tender. He's going through something. So therefore I can love him through this, and in me loving him through this, I'm going to receive deeply. You know the man that I know he is yes and that you know, that you know you spoke, we would go full. Urkel, you spoke about how men love to be asked. I think women love to be let in. Yeah, yes, that's so many women in my world, and I felt this frustration too in our relationship at times. But I think you even asked went on the art of loving a man yesterday in our Q and A you said, Who here feels frustrated by their man sometimes, and every single woman to put their hand up, yeah? And I'm sure you could ask a group of men who feels frustrated or like whatever, yeah, who feels that appreciated, yeah. But there, I know for a lot of women, the frustration comes from not feeling their man like, not feeling like they have access to his inner world, or what's what's alive for him. Because, you know, one of the assumptions that I teach women to make in relationship is assume your man, and again, it's not then ignoring red flags and everything at the beginning of a relationship, but assume your man really wants to love you. Yeah, and I think it's the same for women, like we deeply want to love and serve our men, like at our core, we really deeply do, and we become frustrated when we we don't have the right information on how to do that properly. Okay, so assume he really wants to love you, yes. And then for a man, it'll be like, assume she really cares about what's going on, yeah, assume she really cares about what's going on for you. Yeah, because she does. So if you share that, she is going to care Yeah, that's a good one. That's a real I think there's been so much focus on like, for me, like, oh yeah, I assume, yeah, yeah, he wants to love you really well. And for women, it's like, she wants to care for you. And I think that's a great assumption. You're going to make an assumption bro is like, that's the one. Like, hey, sharing this with her is important, because she cares about me, and she can she, when I say she cares about me, she cares about all of me, not just the me that's easy or powerful or purposeful or the provider or the protectors that she cares about the part of me that is that is sensitive, that is challenged, that is facing adversity that is feeling less than and often as women, we need to feel intimately connected. We need to feel like your heart connected to our heart in order to want to open our body and to have a sexual experience together totally. You know, a lot of women override that and just have sexual experiences when there isn't that intimacy and connection. But a lot of the time we we require that in order to really unfurl and really feel turned on in our in our relationships and in our sex life. And this is one of the things I think men really need to know that like you express like it's a turn on when a man actually, like, for me today, and you walked away, and I was like, hey, that meant so much to me. It meant so much to me that you just lay down in my eyes, and it went so much to me that you just, you know, shared what was going on for you. And it wasn't as if I was just like, rippling would turn on there, but I just, I was open, and I felt deeply connected to you. And yeah, like, offer, if you're a man listening, like, really practice bringing yourself to her. And like, just without her having to really fucking dig and pull and force you open. Can you practice vulnerably sharing, right and see, see the ripple and the difference that has on in in your intimacy and in your connection. Oh, that feels good. I feel complete. I feel hot. Yeah, I'm, you can when it's like, this is bringing up. I'm having a bit of PTSD from our old podcast room, guys. But it wasn't the heater. It was actually hot. It was so I'm starting to feel that feeling. I'm like, I'm actually starting to feel drowsy, yeah, like, this is not good, yeah, like, it's I'm like, I'm like, I feel claustrophobic, I'm feeling overwhelmed, I'm feeling sensitive, I'm feeling like, I don't want bolognese. I want something else with you know, I can, we can cook pumpkin soup. You did say you want a pumpkin soup. I know I said that because we have pumpkins. What do I want? What do I want? I would like a savory mince on toast. I don't know the difference between Bolognese and savory mints, but I can look that up and I will do that for you. No, I feel like bolognese. Thought I'm gonna. Make you save room. No, please don't. I definitely want bolognese. I feel like savory me someone with like the peas and the very our parents generation, and it's like the frozen vegetables, and you'd put it all in. Yeah, it was quite a we used to have Savior mints on toast all the time. Yes, I think, Oh, I think it's quite a modest meal. It was like quite for the for the working class. I remember we were quite fond of the savory mints. I just think, I just think, like on white bread with margarine, you know, yeah. Sometimes I think back to like, how and we do love we could probably have this conversation off camera. But we you and I love good quality food. Yes, we buy all organic even for your retreat, every retreat you do, I spend a lot of money on if you want to come to a retreat and get fed properly, come to one of my retreats. I don't think any retreat would do all eggs, non organic, barn caged egg. That's what they suck because I'm like so I can't compromise when I run something, there's no way I'm gonna bring shit. What about it? Your 29th I got the incredible Milena from life harvest in to cook for us. And it's like, that's, she cooks the best food in the world, the and it's like, from, does she get those ingredients from, like, the biodynamic farm? Yeah, it's all, it's all legit. And that's like, that is, do you know you can get loaves of bread for like, 99 cents? Yeah, I was just gonna say, I often think back to, like, what? And I loved the food I ate as a child, but yeah, how cheap some of the meals were. Like when we had friends over, my mom would just buy, like, $3 worth of chips and a loaf of white bread. It would probably cost you $5 in total, and it would feed, like many, many children. It's Biblical when we have kids over. It'll be like, That's a $300 lunch child and five friends. But that's, um, I love that about us. I think that's like, yeah, the quality is in super important. And I yeah, I find that hilarious. And every now and like, just the Yeah, loaves of bread are $10 $11 we could get a loaf of bread for $1 if we like, we could. We could, literally, yeah, wow. And that is something, no matter what, how like financially, you know, we've that's something from the beginning, even when we had very little, we were still prioritizing that. Yeah, we were prioritizing organic food and what went into our bodies. And yeah, I just that's always been important to us. Yeah, here's to local, organic produce. Yes, let's finish up. I feel like on another podcast, we should retell the I mean, I've been reliving the our first barley trip, and how we had no money, and the story of how we went in to get money and then we didn't have any on the card. Do you remember that? Yeah, that's trauma. Traumatic. Yeah. And all I wanted to do was, like, go to a yoga class, literally saying that the guys and I was like, about, like, the fee, like, not, you know, not hiding from feelings. I was like, I remember being in Bali, and you, all you want to do is go to a yoga class, and I couldn't, I had no money. Like, we didn't have any money, but I didn't have the capacity to, like, you wanted something, and I couldn't give it to you. And I felt so emasculated. I remember actually having to go into the feeling and be like helpless and hopeless. And we're talking about, you know, exploring, you know, your core wounds. And I just remember being like, fuck. That was such a necessary experience for me personally. And a yoga class owned Bali was like $10 maybe, but it was just like we had, and it was so hard being in a beautiful place that was meant to be very affordable, and we were just like, we have not like, we can't do anything. That was really that was very, very confronting. And we went home and we moved in with my parents, and that was also very hard, very confronting, and also incredibly beautiful. You're exactly where you meant to be, always that. Yeah, we should maybe talk about that. Let's get I want to talk more about the spiritual concepts that we believe in. Yeah, I'm feeling like that's necessary. I'd like that. I love we haven't had a podcast like this for a while where we've just bantered and, yeah, touch me that. Hey, like to be touched. Can you ask me the question, How can I love you better? I would like 90 minutes of work every day. I said that to you yesterday. I'm like, I'm at this stage of pregnancy where, like, I just want to be massaged. Every day. So I said to Jacob, hey, it would feel really good for me. Just one of the ways you can perform your pregnancy. If you just give me a 90 minute massage every day, which then turned into, could you do a shamanic drumming journey for me, but like you were playing a drum, but like as you do the shamanic drumming, maybe you could just put oils on me and maybe massage me as well. How are you men? Now I'm realizing, how are you meant to do that? It would be the drumming first. Get me into like, a trance. So I drum for like, 30 to 40 minutes, and then, and then, or I think, prepare my body for the drumming with the oils and the massage. That's probably a great way be careful with how could I love you better? If someone's really, really clear on what they want, just make sure you are asking that and you're unafraid of really claiming, yeah, if you're going to ask that question, be prepared to fulfill whatever answer comes through, or say no, and deal with the outcome there. That's a very important guys. Don't do what I just did. I was just joking. Don't go to your partner. Hey, can you ask me? How can you love me. I've never done that before. Seriously, I'm just imagining. It's like your partner pisses you off, and you're like, hey, my man, can you actually ask me a question? Can you ask me a question? How can I love you better? Right now, it's like, super fast and impressive. This has been fun. Yes, it has Okay. Bless up, beautiful humans, big, love, love you. Bye, peace. Oh, baby, you're so cute down there. You up. Do, Can I press this button or do you turn that off? Okay?