In this episode, we are delving into the nitty-gritty of intimacy, shaking things up and challenging what's considered the norm.
It's not just about desires; we want to open up your vulnerability and amp up the connection that will bring sexy, edgy and safe vibes to your relationships.
Jacob and Meg discuss the need for a safe space to explore desires – no judgment, just genuine curiosity. And guess what? These talks aren't reserved for the bedroom; they spill into everyday life where being real is just the way to be. We're sharing stories that'll make you reflect on what your desires really mean. It's not just about finding yourself; it's about growing and feeling genuinely fulfilled.
We riff off on:
In this episode, we are delving into the nitty-gritty of intimacy, shaking things up and challenging what's considered the norm.
It's not just about desires; we want to open up your vulnerability and amp up the connection that will bring sexy, edgy and safe vibes to your relationships.
Jacob and Meg discuss the need for a safe space to explore desires – no judgment, just genuine curiosity. And guess what? These talks aren't reserved for the bedroom; they spill into everyday life where being real is just the way to be. We're sharing stories that'll make you reflect on what your desires really mean. It's not just about finding yourself; it's about growing and feeling genuinely fulfilled.
We riff off on:
Hey beautiful humans. Welcome to sex, love and everything in between. You're here with Jacob and my wife, Meg. And this is the place where we have all them very, very real raw and extremely unfiltered conversations about sex, love, and everything in between. It's here you get a behind the scenes look into our relationship. And we will not be holding back. Well, we might have no hate. Don't know how to do that. Not at all. So beautiful ones. Thank you for being here. Enjoy this episode. Welcome back, everybody. Hey, lovers. Hi, my man. Nice talking to them. Not, you know, well, I'm saying hello to you. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. It's a bit of tension in the room today is that? I think he, I think he wanted to go on, that'd be tension. Why is that? Are you really over me today? Not over, you know, not at all. How are you my love fighty language is saying otherwise. I'm great. wife has been hot, hasn't it? We've just moved all of our podcast equipment into this room that we never usually use in our house. It's like a second kind of living space. But the podcast studio was getting just a spare room in our house. And as carpet and the sun hits it in the afternoon, and it literally feels like you're in a car that's been in the sun. Yeah, all day without air conditioning. And it's almost torturous, is there and we've just recorded a few videos. And there was a moment where we both came out and you're like, I actually thought I was gonna pass out. I actually was I thought I was having micro sleeps. I was like, my eyes were closed and I was like, shaking myself awake. I was like, I don't know how that's gonna look on camera. But I trust that it'll be okay. So if you're in ignite your intimacy, that it was epic content we created amazing. Through the hate. Yeah, initiation it was but if you see Jacob having like, very long blinks to snow, it's the heat. He's not like, Boyd. Oh, I was having it. Yeah, I was experiencing a blackout momentary. So we've moved everything. We're going to cool the space. It feels so much better out here already. I feel much better. Yeah, feeling good. Yeah. Anything else you want to talk about? Before we get into today's topic? tell anything about the dog how the dog is going. It's going great. I love having a dog everyone. Yeah, Meg is now doing her dog mom dog training. on YouTube. I was watching probably like a good how many clicks 90 minutes to two hours worth of dog training videos on YouTube the other night. And then I took I did all the things you really, I'm incredibly proud of you. Thank you someone who has never owned a dog, the enthusiasm and the level of skill that you're developing. You could be a second career. I think it could be a side hustle. He can see it. I was teaching him to stay and then come the like today. And he he nailed that most of the time. He's he's probably the best dog in the world. Genius dog actually, should we take him in like shows and stuff? Is that how we're gonna be when we have a child? This child is a genius. It's the greatest child ever. I think most people like that. I don't think so. Yeah, I think we will. This has made me so excited to become a mother. Yeah, we're gonna have so much fun. It's just like, I'm so obsessed with the dog. And I never thought I was gonna be that way. I'm like, imagine when you get pregnant and have a baby. I mean, like, what you do things? Yeah, it's the greatest thing in the world like you and I just like watching the dog all the time. Like, and I never thought I'd be that guy. But I just riding the waves of like, humility. I didn't think like when I used to see people face to other dogs. I'm like, get over it. Get over guys. No, not really. But I was like, Oh, that's cute. When I'm like, Oh my gosh, yes. This thing. Like, you wake up and you see a dog and you're with it all that well. Without okay. All day, every day. Yeah. Like that's really fun. Of course, you're obsessed with it. Yeah. 100% Okay, and I've talked chat. Okay, we've ticked off the dial. We've had our little intro, let's dive in. Well, today, we're gonna have a conversation about how to bring fantasies and desires into the bedroom. How to have conversations about your fantasies about the desires you have for sex. Yes. Do we do we talk about jealousy? We have spoken about jealousy a bunch of episodes. I think I feel like this is like a that'll wave itself in as well. I had someone asked me a question about that. And on Instagram, like how does gel Okay, do you ever get jealous? I mean, there was at a party and someone asked me that and I just remember being like, Oh, cool. It'd be like it's good. To like, see how like actually bringing fantasy and desires and speaking about it can actually alleviate that jealousy can actually help like dissolve. It might not be just like cutting out desires or fantasy so you don't ever get jealous. But it's like actually how do we weave this into our our relationships so it dissolves that fear of rejection or that fear of losing your partner to someone else or to something else. So I think that's going to be a really, really cool thing to weave in as well. I don't know what number episode it was. But pretty early on, we spoke about monogamy and having desire outside our relationship and how we've navigated that in the past. So if you want to hear about that, and like we got we deep dive into, yeah, how do we? How do we choose monogamy and then also really own the desires we have for other people, and allow that attraction to be there. So that's a great fucking episode. What do we want to begin? Let's begin with desires. Oh, actually, if you haven't, and you if you want to get stuck into your desires, we've got an epic thing called the desire date. Yes. Let's talk about that really quickly. It's, this was the thing that I feel like sparked our journey of all like sparked a big part of our journey and relationships. Just like within our own life, not serving anyone not giving anything when we created the design. We did it for ourselves. And it changed everything. Yeah, like it literally like unlocked the like, it was kind of like our sex was good. But then when we did the design, I don't remember where we were at biscuit at. Yeah, no. Miami. No, nobody sees. Yeah. And remember, we did it. And we were sharing the answers. And I was like, Oh, my God, holy shit we in the car? Or did we share the answers of the cafe? And then I remember I remember the car. I remember being in the car and like just being so turned on. Yes, I did. Maybe that was after that was after? Yeah. That was cool. Yeah. So this was like a real moment where I feel like, all of the things that I've been holding that we've kind of been like holding back on, or been like, just being like, Oh, I won't bring that I won't bring that. No, that's not. No, I don't need to those like, okay, let's just lay it all out on the table, and take a look at it and start to have conversations and see what excites us see where we can meet each other and explore things together. And what I felt was like it actually expanded the map. Like the desire, so I was like, Oh, this map is so much bigger. Now. There's so much more for us to explore. This newness is here. This feels invigorating. Yes. So for me, that was the, the experience that I had with it. And I'm like, Yeah, super grateful. And I've had so many, so many of my clients who have gifted it to and they've been like, like, bro, I have to, I've got I've got something to tell you on the next next week's call. I'm like, I'm so excited to hear how and he's like, Oh, man changed, changed everything. That's so a thing. So basically, we created this questionnaire for ourselves. This was years and years ago, because we could feel that we wanted to expand our sex life. Yeah. And we wanted to explore different things, but we didn't even know how to fucking begin. And that's a huge part of this episode, and why we're creating it. If you've been in a long term relationship, and it's so easy to fall into a very routine way of having sex and being intimate, unless you're very conscious about it. And unless like exploring, you know, sexual experience different sexual experiences is really high on your priority list. Often, long term relationships just get into this really routine pattern. And I think we were really feeling that and we began to be like, Yeah, we we want to explore and I was having a bit of a sexual awakening. So yeah, we created this questionnaire that we both start with separately, where we start with questions like, What does sex mean to you? When does sex begin? What's your wildest fantasy? When's the best like describe the best sex like we've had in our partnership like all of these different things. And then we did that separately. And then we came together at the cafe and we and it was the biggest fucking turn on and it was so incredible to you know, create this safe non judgmental space and container where we could really just explore what was there and almost like you said, create this map or set this compass from where we potentially wanted to go, or actually share our designs and then go oh, I'm annoyed of that. But that one, that one feels a little edgy, but tell me more about why that excites you and it was so fucking powerful. So basically, we now have created that but that was so powerful for us and now we've created it as an offering and a facilitated date night with like audios and when you can do this with with us supporting Yeah, it's a whole online experience. So go and get that link is in the show notes. It's only $27 as well. It's really fucking powerful. Definitely unlike any men out there that are listening that want to take the lead in their relationship and like set a date night this is a great date night exercise. Yeah, super easy to to instigate and like lead and I guarantee that your woman will really You really receive it because you'll feel your, your capacity to bring something to it. And it's 27 bucks, it's super cheap, super easy. And I just want to rehash the safety piece for anyone that like, may have desires, and they've brought them up in the throes of sex. I think we'll probably get into this on the podcast. But yeah, this is a great way to safely bring desires. It was this was one of the major reasons we, we brought this, like, we created it as an offering because it can be really fucking edgy. And we know this from our own experience, it can be so fucking edgy, to want to expand your sex life and to explore new things. But not even knowing like, where to fucking begin how to have that conversation. There can be a real sensitivity, sometimes around talking about sex, if you haven't had a lot of communication around there. And you don't want to say things you don't want your partner to think that you haven't enjoyed the sex you've been having, well, how do I bring these designs in? Oh, it can, it can be a really, you know, edgy experience. So that's part of the reason why we created the offering. So that, you know, it could be really facilitated and contained, and they can do a lot of safety. And then that's also why we're here doing this episode. Oh, so enjoy this episode, and then go get the designing. And we begin. Okay. Do you wanna start your dinner? No, no, no, no, oh, you got I didn't know how to talk about my desires in a relationship. I am because we were having good sex. I didn't know that there was something more. I knew I had his desires, but I never knew how to bring them. And I didn't think they were necessary. Because we what we'd created was, was good enough. And then also with fantasies, I didn't really understand how they had a place in our relationship. Yeah, as well. So early on, I was very, very, what's the word, hesitant to do any of this sort of stuff, I was very hesitant to, like, bring any of this. And for me as what I was quite a people pleaser, and a nice guy back then I kind of didn't ever believe that there was a space for me to have these desires voice to space for me to have these, these fantasies woven into our, our experience. So yeah, knowing that and knowing where we're at now, it's like the steps that we've taken has been pretty. I wouldn't say that it's been a, like a flick of a switch. But for me, it's been it's like gradual practice, gradual practice of bringing more and more and more and more to the space. And I feel it's been like the conversations outside of the bedroom that has had the most impact. Yeah. I want to get into more of that in a little bit. But I want to hear from you when you said you weren't really sure of I think he said you weren't sure about your desires, or, and I know like you were watching more probably or you're watching porn back then I don't really watch porn at all anymore. Do you feel like you will lead you there was an idea of like, okay, there's a part of me that's allowed in my sexual experiences with my partner. And then for the other desires of these other things, that's when I can just go watch some kinky porn or whatever. And that part of me, isn't welcome. That part of me. I can't bring into my relationship. Yeah, I do that. In the shadows. Yes. Yeah, behind closed doors. Yes. And I think I want to start there, because this is why it's really important. Like sex can be, we can choose for it to be a place where all of it is welcome, where we can play with our DACA desires in a very consensual way. Like, it has to be in a conceptual way, right? Like, and we can play in in these DACA desires, and have that part of us filled in a loving relationship, and we can bring those but I think so many people, you know, because there's so much shame and taboo around sex, there is such a distortion and also a separation of, I can make love to my woman. Right? And then I'll just go and watch hectic porn to feed that part of me. Where what if that part of you that you were getting that outlet weed with porn, you actually started to bring that into the bedroom and have that fed. And that takes a lot of fucking vulnerability. You don't have to be vulnerable when you just go on PornHub and like lock yourself in the bathroom. There's a lot of vulnerability to potentially bring a desire or a fantasy, or things that turn you on that you may see like, darker or more taboo. And this is why it's really important if you as a couple want to expand into, you know, exploring more different, more enriching sexual experiences, that you both agree to create a very safe space of nangia Men where your partner feels safe to bring things like oh my god, I'd love to get a little kinky, I'd love to his part of me that wants to, like, dominate you. Maybe choke you or pull in your hair or bite you or tie you tie you up, yeah, blindfold you, right? Like your partner can bring that. And you can say, wow, like, tell me more about that. You don't have to be yes to it. You can be a no or you can be maybe not yet. But you don't have to project shame onto your partner. You don't have to make them feel wrong for desiring that or having, bringing that to the conversation or wanting that. And I think this is like the major piece if you if you were deeply intentional about this, cultivating this kind of culture in your relationship and environment in your relationship. Your sex life will naturally fucking expand into some really glorious places. Because suddenly, there's a safety to just like, bring desires that are already there, but felt like they needed to be locked in the shadows. out of shame, you can relax. Yeah, because you got nothing to hide. Yeah, you can relax because it's all out on the table. You can relax because like you said, this safety and knowledge, there's a space where there's safety and non judgement. For that, to be seen for that to be heard and that to be acknowledged and spoken about. Which is awesome. Yeah, yeah. I feel to the the porn thing is just so fucking easy. Yeah, that's the thing. Like when we look at it, when we weigh it up, it's like, well, bringing my desires to my partner, having a conversation opening up, fearing potential rejection, fearing potential judgment, fearing potential shaming, or typing in pornhub.com, hitting the, you know, one of them millions of videos, and sitting on the toilet and watching 10 minutes of porn. Very, very easy, very, very accessible, doesn't require any vulnerability. Right? It is set up for you to choose the porn, like life is set up for you to choose the easy option. So whether you're a man or you're a woman, bringing your desires to your partner is a courageous act contains service to the relationship. Yeah, it is a courageous act in service to the relationship and the depth of intimacy that I'm assuming both of you would desire. How about you might love how did you? How does desires and fantasies feel for you on your journey of sharing more and more? The first thing that comes to mind, is the first time I asked you to choke me. Yeah. And you were like, so you were quite nervous too. And I think I had to almost like tap, tap tap out a little because it was it was a lot and we probably hadn't discussed like, we held that I probably hadn't had a lot of conversations about that. That was just a desire I bought in that moment. And not because I was just like, you know, it wasn't tapping, I'll be like, Oh my God, it was just like, oh, no, that's enough for now. And, and I remember afterwards, you being like, Oh, that was that was a lot like it was a lot for me. So that's the first thing that comes to mind. Like that's I remember now I really love like the huge desire of mine is like, I love fucking being tied up. I love being dominated I love Yeah, I love being a submissive not not in every sexual experience. But that's, that's a real like, kink of mine or a desire of mine. And I think asking you to choke me in the moment was like a real opening of that. And I remember that feeling quite edgy to ask for. Yeah, I'm trying to tune into how that unfolded for us if that was like a. And I use this analogy in a video we recorded earlier that I think I think moments like this can almost be like jumping off a cliff. And if we have a desire that we want to speak of all, it was very much this way when I used to not in the bedroom not know how to use my voice like, say ex partners, but like, you know, touching my pussy in a certain way. And it was just like, Oh, that feels good, but like, just a little to the left. But I didn't even know how to use my words. It was literally like the words would just stuck in my throat. And it came to the point where it was just like, oh, this is gonna feel scary. When I do it. There's not going to be a point where I just suddenly feel super safe and like super just like, oh, this is easy to say this kid's going to feel scary to say it. So I've just got to be with the fear and do it anyway. And I think this is kind of the vibe when we're like bringing something a little edgy old. We've been in a long term relationship for a really long time and we've having kind of routine sex and we want to, you know, shake it off a bit and mix Things are a bit, it's gonna feel edgy to lead that conversation. Or to suggest something that feels really different. But that's like the price to pay the price. You've got to pay the awkwardness in the body, the edginess, the courage, you've got to experience the price you pay the you've got to pay to be able to expand into deeper, deeper experiences, deeper sexual experiences, deeper levels of intimacy. Oh, it was there ever a time where you like felt awkward to bring a desire or a fantasy to me? Hmm. I don't know. You're a pretty expressive person. I huh? Yeah, yeah. I feel like I'm just remembering when we lived at quiet street, and I was very, that was like my, you know, invitation into self pleasure. And I remember using the we chose to get one of those ones, the Black Mamba, which had, you know, a part for anal play. And we chose that together. And that was a really fun choice together. And yeah, like an NG thing we were doing together. And I remembered using that on myself, without you knowing and that felt a bit edgy to like, tell you that. Yeah. It'd be like, I use that on myself. And like, yeah, that felt a bit edgy to tell you. Yeah, and then there's been times probably like, an edge for me in the past has been, like fantasy. Like, if I'm, if I'm thinking of fantasy, to actually express that fantasy. I know that that felt really edgy for me in the past. Yeah. Yeah, I felt really vulnerable. Instead of just saying, I would like, you know, to explore anal play, like the idea of Whoo, oh, my gosh, you're, I'm going to express what I'm visualizing or thinking about in my mind that that for some reason feels so exposing you so love and this that we can probably get into a little, little side tangent, you still love me, like, telling you a story. Sexy story used to be obsessed with that? I really didn't. That was really in a season of my turn on where I was like exploring a lot more turn on. But I was still kind of expecting you to be the one to turn me on. Yes. And I was wanting to, you know, get a little edgier and kinkier. Yeah. But I was still using you to do that. Yeah. So it's kind of like, during our full play, like, tell me a story. And that using that story and fantasy that I didn't have to make up that I was wanting you to make up. Yeah. And I would usually just like throw that on you like tell me story? Yeah. You didn't. How was your experience with that? Upon reflection? Yeah, I can see where he's like, Ah, I did that. And it was great. But at the same time, yeah, I can see where the expectation was for me to, like, take responsibility for turning you on. Yeah, I was like, oh, like I do. I do. Remember when it did start to get a little bit. I remember when it was like, Do I really like to I really my job. Like, I remember like becoming like a little bit resentful. But at times, it was really fun. And I think like weaving that in as a as something that we do is fun. Yeah, like now that it's probably not from the same place like when we do start to play in a bit of fantasy and a bit of storytelling and role playing. It's, it is really fun. And I'm not asking every time we begin to have sex like Yeah, me too sexy story. Like now that's that's like, I don't love. We're not big fantasy people. We it's definitely part of our sexual repertoire. It's in the toolbox. It's definitely in the toolbox, but we don't use fantasy every time to get off and I I don't think there's anything wrong with fantasy, I fucking love fantasy. And if you ever relying on fantasy to be turned on, and to really lead your sexual experiences, and you're wanting to expand into deeper levels of pleasure and deeper sexual experiences, I would actually invite you to explore pausing, really using fantasy all the time for a little bit. And to really explore like sensation and embodiment. Again, fantasy isn't wrong at all. It's like a powerful tool in your tools of turn on and sexual experience. But if that's like the only thing just like porn if you can only get off to porn, pause the porn for a bit to explore what it would like to re sensitize your body to exploring turn on and pleasure and arousal without that stimulus. And same with fantasies. I really feel like men like when they masturbate. They definitely rely on fantasy or porn. Yeah, get themselves to the point of orgasm. Yeah, definitely. I know. That was my that was definitely my. My go twos were like porn or fantasy. Yeah. And then from there, like it took it took like actually sitting down and being with my body and like touching myself in a way that was like, Oh, how does that feel, Jacob? What is that sensation? Well, Why is it feeling like that? Oh shit. Like, this is a whole lot more about me than it is about like what I'm thinking about or what I'm watching outside of me. Yeah, like in being in the body? Yeah, yeah. What was that? Like? When we first started having sex and with other sexual partners? Would you still use fantasy during sexual experiences? Or would it be the focus of on the woman they're with? You? know, I've never I've don't think I've ever really used fantasy in in like having sex with women. Yeah. And very only when you've asked for it. Yeah, like the end that's more of a storytelling to like, create turn on the end for foreplay. But apart from that, I've never really I would never know I was quite if I was with like, it was quite exciting. To explore a woman's body. Never really needed fantasy in that regard. A little dog dog is really wanting to come into this room to come in and say hi, but he wants to chew all the cords. I know he can't be in here. Hey, little Django. We're gonna be out soon, little guy. We have such dog people. Yes, I'm looking. Oh. Let me ask another question. Okay, how does that feel? Good? Could be any question, Do it? Do you have any desires that have not yet fulfilled the desire that you'd like to share live on air, we'll put you on the spot. We've spoken about having a threesome for a long time we have and we haven't actually experienced that. That's one of when we use fantasy. That's a lot of the fantasy that we explore. And not really, that really turns me on. But I'm very particular in terms of, you know, I've only been having sex with you for the last 10 years, nine and a half years. Like the It feels very, I love playing with that fantasy. And it feels like a very safe fantasy to express and talk about, but the actual unfolding of that experience because unlike I'm not going to let just anyone not just gonna go on Tinder and find someone to like hook up with you know, so I'm like, legit, my mind goes to like, how would that unfold logistically? But yeah, that's that's definitely a desire. I have. Yeah. And I feel like that's like, I'm sorry, go on. Well, sorry. Like my actually my deepest fantasy is just to lie there and have many, many, many, many, many hands, and everything all over my body. And for me to not know who's touching me and what's happening and just be in this like sea of people touching, licking, being all over me and very impeccable lovers. High quality like this, like deep submissive, surrendered state and I'm just eating Yeah, just being like, ravished ravished by many, many people. Or that's like the ultimate fantasy. And that would be like deep receivership, right. That's just like fully receiving, you're not doing you're not having to give in any way. You're just that receivership. Yeah. And for me, that's my even though I love like, I get into a bit of a DOM mode sometimes. And we we went to the sex dungeon dungeon, and I was a bit of a dominatrix, like, I love that to play with. But that's not like a my favorite kind of sex is where I feel like my head has been chopped off. My favorite kind of sex is like, when I feel like my body has melted into water. And like, that's, that's kind of submissive. So deep surrender. That's my favorite. So that's always going to be the ultimate fantasy for me. I love that maybe even like Shabari like being tied up. And do you really want like a professional chivari I feel you need to go and be like tied up. Yeah, by someone that's like someone that's like, legitimately good at it. Like you want to get trained and skilled. Even when we did we did a Shabari workshop at our house like two years ago now. And we had a few couples there with us and we had this we've done some funny things we really have amazing. Yeah. But we had Yeah, this this couple common common teaching, he would get, you know, bunnies, like bunnies like the kind of person he would get little like example rope bunnies up there. And I was I was the example one in for a moment that he was, he's touch and he he was like quite a small. Yeah, he didn't present as a really strong, masculine figure and I wasn't attracted to him at all when I saw him physically. And then when he like his decisive movement and his control and his the way he dominated with his energy, but I could feel he trusted himself so deeply and there was never any hesitation. So sexy and I just melt like my body melt. Sit. And that's a great dumb energy. Yeah. Right when you are so aware of the space and you are so decisive in your movements, and there is no hesitation that allows the submissive or whatever you want to call it, to deeply feel safe to let go. So deeply feel like they don't have to worry about what's happening, or do I have to move? It's just like they are resting into you. And I love that. Yes, you did. I really feel it's like important to speak about, like, design, like, this is something that I learned in. David data's recent course that I did online was around like, desires and how to actually like calibrate them, so you can explore them in a safe way with partners. Yeah. But before we jump into that, as like, I think it's important to understand like, sometimes desires can be fantasies and fantasies can be desires. And it's like knowing where to actually, like, navigate those for like, for instance, like the three similar having many hands touching you and really submitting into that, like, that is a deep desire, right? And we can use fantasy to kind of evoke the feeling, yes. So you have that feeling in, in our relationship. So it doesn't mean that necessarily you have to go in to access that desire, as soon as possible to get the feeling. Yes, I love that nuance, because I think this is also when he started speaking about jealousy in the beginning. Like, even we used to have conversations about opening our relationship and what would it feel like to open to other people and have, you know, other sexual partners? That was we have never done that. No, we used to talk about all the time. And that became part of our fantasies, and it was so beautiful, to be open to those kinds of conversations, and to use that as like energy and fuel for our sex life without having to go and do that thing. And this is why I truly believe it's so important to honor that even when were in a committed monogamous relationship. We are going to be attracted to other people full fucking stop. We are animals we are going to feel attraction to other people. And instead of making that wrong in partnership, can we use that to fuel our sex life? Can we use that to fuel our turn on? Right instead of making it wrong and feeling like we have to push it down and feel shame around that? Can we actually use it as like a tool and and something that lights the fucking fire of? Yeah, our passion and our connection? Oh, one of the things that David David did say on the call was um, if your fantasy if the fantasy is serving the connection between your hearts and then it is in service to intimate communion it is in service to the love that you to share. If the fantasy is a way for you guys to get it is the only access point for for for orgasm or if it's the only way to get you off? Yeah, then it becomes a crutch. That was a really like really cool discerning factor around like, okay, fantasy is not good or bad. It's just the, it is the way it's being used. And the same sort of thing is like you can you can take a desire and you can wrap it up in a fantasy and it can create the feeling without you having to go out and fuck 30 other people, right? Or go out and have a threesome with someone that you don't really want to do do it with but you want to do it because you want to access the desire. Totally. So this is a really important thing to like be nuanced with and that's why I feel like the desire date and when we did it and how we've how it sort of cultivated this culture of sharing desires, sharing fantasies, it has actually made us feel more safe then actually feel more exposed in our relationship. Yeah, yeah, that's such a beautiful way of putting it because we have a culture where all is welcome. Yes. And so when all is welcome, there is all for me there's like it's much trust there because I don't think you're you're hiding things from me. I don't think you're taking things into the shadow. There's like this permission slip to bring it all here. And again, it doesn't mean when we're creating this kind of culture in our in our relationship that we have to be a yes to every desire upon a brings no fucking way like we get. And I think I want to deepen here into this conversation. Because this is really important when we do create a culture where we're, you know, communicating one's desires and you know, getting a little edgier in our expression. It's important that we know that we can say no, but from a place like I said earlier when we're not shaming our partner, if one of my favorite things is like if you brought like just say something What's a desire? Namely just like a real wild kinky desire doesn't have to be yours, but God didn't say that. I want to piece in your mouth. Okay, so Jacobs brought that and maybe he's brought it really vulnerably you're gonna bring it vulnerability to me. Hey, love, I've got this desire and I feel a little I'm not sure how it's gonna go. I'm really nervous too. share it with you. I just want to know that even even saying this feels really hard like I would really love if you're open to it like I'd love to piece in your mouth. I'd love to give you a golden shower. That's, that is a hard one to say like even as a as an example. That's yeah. Okay. And then one way if I was already like, say your partner's brought that to you, and already you feel like, oh, that's disgusting. Right? It's important that we honor the vulnerability It takes no matter no matter our opinion on the desire. Like to honor that. Okay, that he's allowed to have that desire. Can we not even though we might internally feel that's dirty? That's wrong, right? Can we? Can we own that in our own body, but not projecting that onto our partner? So instead of like, oh, no fucking way. That's so gross. Okay. Thank you for sharing with me. Right now. That feels super edgy for me. And I feel like I'm in no, but tell me like, why that excites you? And why that would really turn you on. I'd love to know more about law to answer. Are you still going? Is this just not natural? Does that sound like it's it was like I don't What do I say something that because that's something that if someone brought you to like that would be something that could easily evoke a trigger, right? Totally. But yeah, in Arabic, I want to feel powerful. I want to dominate you, I want you I want you to feel like I want to want to overpower you. I want to be like the man when I feel like alpha. Cool. And see already like asking why then opens the door. Okay. I don't want you to piece in my mouth. Yeah, but is there any other ways that you feel like you could? You could play with like overpowering me and dominantly like, I would love to help you feel that I want to give you that feeling? While we're fucking like, what other ways? What other things? Could that look like for you? Yeah, perfect. And can you see how instead of a situation where that could have turned into your partner feeling rejected, ashamed, and like it's not safe to bring my desires. And so he's probably going to lock up the rest of his desires and take them into the shadows to play out that part of him. Instead, he feels safe. He's you've still honored your know. But the conversation is opened and you're still because underneath that no is most likely if you're in sexual relation to relations with this person and you deeply love them. You want you want them to get what they want in the bedroom. You want them to be really experiencing and exploring the depths of their sexuality. So yeah, like continuing to be curious about that conversation. So you can understand like, oh, what tell me like, why does that excite you? And why is that a turn on for you? Okay, I want to help me feel that what else? What else? What else? And like, just to give you like a few other examples of like desires that might be like a little edgy. Like, I want to step on your toes. Or I want to fuck your armpit. Or you know, your, your yep, I yeah, I think I might be. I've just recently realized how like, arousing armpits or like, you started to look around my armpits the other day. And I was well, not the other day a while ago. And I was like, I fucking lost that. Yeah. So yeah, so there we go. I think that's a kink and you think, but any of those sort of like edgy ones. They may not be seen as like the, the, I guess they don't show up on the first page of Pornhub. Yeah. They might be a little bit on the fringe. It's like those sorts of things. If you can bring them in, then actually allow your partner to be received and not make them wrong and be like, Hey, listen, I'm a note of that. Is that like, what? Like, what? Why is it that you want to do that? Like for me, like if some if you said, hey, I want a piece in your mouth, I'm like, Hey, I'm a pretty strong note of that. Yeah, I, I'm a strong note of that. And I don't think I ever I don't see me ever being open to that. But I want you to know that like, what is it? Like? What what why is it that you want to do that? Like, what is it? What is it about that, that excites you? And I think that's a really like, it's just such a beautiful thing. And what I what I want to, like hone in on. And this is something that we do in our men circles and all our retreats and everything that I do with my clients is I language, if you can own your, your know and set your boundary from a place of I'm a no to that. I'm a hard No. And based on how I'm feeling I'm, I'm going to I feel I'm going to be a no for a very long time. But I'd love to know why it is that you want to do that. I'd love to know what excites you about that. Tell me more. So we're fleshing it out. We're actually taking a look at it not just taking it at face value and being like oh, that's a no to that. You can actually invite your partner and more into the space more into this space with your inquiry. Yes. And I thought he's all about safety. Right? It's like Am I that part of you is allowed here. I'm a no to that. But tell me, tell me more. Tell it like let that part of you be free. here, and this is so fucking healing. Like, we live in a sexually repressed society, which most of us are walking around with these parts of us these, these, these sexually alive parts of us, or the parts of us that want to be sexually expressed, maybe even darker parts of ourselves, like, we're walking around with them shoved into a little box, but they're still fucking there. And they come out in distorted ways they come out in the shower, like, you know, they're in the shadows, so they come out in distorted ways, like locking ourselves in the bathroom watching Pornhub. Or, you know, having these like shadowy ways that these play out, this could look like abuse, this could look like manipulation, all these different things. And so, it's not only healing for you as individuals and as a couple, but it's also fucking healing for our entire culture and world. When we bring these into the light, when we bring these parts of us into the light, and let them be there, and that let them relax into the space. Like when there is a part of us that we've been taught to hold so much shame around, when it is free, when it is led out of the cage. It is the biggest fucking exhale. And that doesn't, that's not only going to affect your sex life, that's going to affect your entire life. Do you feel that? Yeah, 100% Do you want to speak on that in terms of like, men, if you the whole thing, this is the reason that there is violence that there is destruction that there is I guess this I don't want to use the word toxic masculinity, but this, this unnecessary pain and suffering in the world. For me, it's like men that are that hold shame around their their deepest desires, and they haven't actually brought them into the light. A lot of men that like for me, like I was a nice guy. But there was a manipulative part of me, there was a passive aggressive part of me that was playing out in a really destructive way in my life. It wasn't like massive big outbursts, but it was yeah, it was slowly slowly putting my fire out through the use of porn too. And then that translated into I didn't speak up for myself at work, because I didn't have my power. I didn't powerfully take the lead in our relationship and make decisions because I didn't feel like I had the right to because I wasn't like the man, I wasn't able to, like, bring all of me. So when we unlock our desires, and we bring them out of the space, we unlock parts of ourselves that have not had time to breathe. And I imagine it's like when you keep pushing down those desires, they find another way to come out. Yeah. And normally, it's in a really dark, sinister, slimy, leaky way. And there's so much shit that goes on and as well, that I'm not okay with some really horrible things that go on. And it's like, I believe that's from like, men not being able to own their desires, and like bringing them into the light and being able to have a conversation around them and then get clear on why is it that you want to experience that? Normally, it has to do with the feeling that you could cultivate in a much healthier way? Yes, in a consensual, consensual way, right? Yeah. Yeah, I think that's so fucking important. Yeah, so you'd like the ripple of this. And I think this is important to understand. If you're feeling a little nervous, if you're like, Ah, I don't want to I'm nervous about like, what I don't want to know what I don't even know if my partner watches porn, or what his porn search should be like, I don't want to know that and like, I don't want to see those dark parts of it or hear of him. And just like learning to, like how much creating that safety and welcoming those parts of yourself or your partner into the relationship is so deeply healing, and then you can utilize the parts that potentially both of you or one of you have been really pushing down, you can utilize that for your turnaround and for your sexual relations relations. I don't like saying relations relations public did not have sexual relations. What else do you want to talk about in terms of how to how to bring how to bring this conversation or how to have this conversation in partnership? Or any other pieces like the thing that I really what I would say is like the thing that I think we spoke about this back in the day with the art of epic relationships on next level lovers, there's borrowed desires and there's authentic desires. So one of the things that you can really get clear on as to why do I want to watch this type of porn? Is this actually an authentic desire? What is an authentic desire for me and what is a bar desire from society or from from TV from from the internet? What am I actually what do I actually want? So I think that's another good good sort of thread to walk down being like oh, what do I actually want? What is an authentic desire for me what is an authentic what is a fantasy that's actually like coming from a place of like my, my pleasure center my like, my my like my own Eros? Yeah, I think that's something that probably doesn't get spoken about enough, especially for a lot of guys because I'm sure you know, there's the guys that watch fucking step, stepsister porn and and there's the guys that watch gangbang porn, there's guys that watch this type of porn or that type of porn. It's like, Oh, what is the? What is the feeling? Or the undertone? That's like being evoked here. When you get to when you watch that? What does that allow you to feel? Is it power? Is it kind of like, do you feel naughty? Do you feel cheeky? Do you feel dominant? Do you feel like deep worship, what is it that you're getting from it, and knowing that you can bring that in, to, again, watching porn, that's very, you know, they call it almost abusive. There's almost like a pot of a man being fed in that, you know, that dark masculine, where there is a way that you can bring that same kind of energy that maybe you're getting in a in a respectful way. And I think this is really important for men to learn how to, you know, embrace that part of them that wants to feel dominant, or wants to feel in control to embrace that and actually use that in a way that reveals their woman in a ways that honors their woman deeply and in a way that supports the woman to go to a place that she deeply fantasizes about or yearns for. And, like I said earlier, that feeling for me is like, mind blowing sex like sex that I literally feel like my head has been cut off. And that takes a dominant person to get me that that takes me feeling like this space is really deeply being held. I want men to understand that like that, like cultivating the capacity to hold their desires and communicate their desires will change their life. And it's, it's something that you don't put off until after, like, after I do this, after I get here, then I'll come back to it, then I'll come back to it. This is so this is something that you haven't you must feed and, and provide time, energy and resource to if you do want to build a deep relationship with your lover if you want to build a deep relationship with your body and not just live from the head. And that's kind of like if you're working really hard and you're doing well and you're climbing the ladder and making your money. Fuck yeah. But then like you're you're in your head you're you're you're you're projecting you're building, you're doing all these things you're focusing on, on getting shit done. And then you come back and you use your mind to access the feeling of relief through porn, you're spending majority of your life in the head. And you're never actually allowing the the like the body to get get nourished in a way that it needs. And that's when things start to pile up and men start to lose their health or men start to become really rigid or their emotional state is so much more volatile. So they have to start using other coping mechanisms to maintain a level of regulation, just so they can get through the next day, week, month or year. And this is something that I see like most men struggle with is that they've spent so much of their time focusing on what they can achieve and create success in and provide for their family and protect their family that they lose this actual like almost like this well I imagined like this, this will have desires within them. And if you actually tap that well and you constantly like draw from it, you feed yourself in a way that I don't believe anything else can say I'm going to share my desires and almost communicate with life communicate with my lover communicate with the world, this is what I this is what my my body and heart aches for. And I believe that if we actually started to get more vulnerable as men and share these desires, not from a place of I need them but from a place of like hey, this is what I fucking want. Hey, this is this is me, this is who I am that we wouldn't have men subscribing to desires or a linear system that has them reaching for goals that aren't even fucking that we see this with guys trying to like you know, fuck as many women as they can or try to. They lack commitment because they don't understand that depth is one of the their core desires like depth in in any area of life. And we don't live in a world especially for men that cultivates depth know everything, especially in their sexuality like I'm just gonna say you can't have if you are relying on porn, you cannot have a deep connection to sexuality. Not relying on porn to connect with your own body and you know, sexual expression. You are not going to have a great capacity to hold a woman Fuck no. No, you there's going to be part of you that is hiding. Even if you do tell people about the porn that you are trying to watch porn. It's like, Oh, why do you watch that off? Because it's just something that I do. It's like, well, let's go deeper. Let's get deeper. Why do you watch it? What do you watch? When do you watch it? How do you watch it? Oh, wow. Okay, fair enough. Cool, and how does it make you feel? And this is a conversation I have with many, many men around this and we speak about like, what is porn? Good or bad? My belief is it's neither a skeleton, it's got nothing to do with the, the, the lens of whether it's right or wrong, it's how you choosing to engage with it, and what are you using it for? Or what are you using it to escape? Or what are you using it to bypass? Yeah, and porn is just one example. Because we're talking about desires in a sexual relationship, and many men will, will have multiple of these these coping mechanisms that they use to access the the relief or the nourishment without having to actually put in the work, and it always ends. Shitty, if you use porn, it always ends in, you're not actually getting to experience what you desire, because one of the core things that men love is the fucking is the grind is the actual journey to the destination. So you're actually denying yourself the deepest nourishment that your your masculine core can receive, which is to be present for the process that allows that, that which you desire to be the result of. Yeah. And that, for me is like the classic I look at it as like, men who choose to get the helicopter to the top of the mountain to see the view versus the guy that walks every step. Like we're who, who's happier, or who's more fulfilled, they both see the same view right at the end, but who actually feels more invigorated, who feels more alive, who feels more attuned, who feels more embraced by the oneness of fucking life, the guy who took five minutes to fly to the top of the mountain, or the guy who walked for the whole day for 12 hours in the hot sun with potential snakes and fucking bears and whatever else, you know, flies and, and trees and stinging nettles, like what, who gets who gets the best better experience, right? Who gets to experience more? Who gets to like it had that experience the depth of their desire truly is the man walking up the mountain because there's beautiful he sees the wildflowers, he smells the pine trees, he like turns around takes a look as the view becomes more and more and more beautiful. He gets to experience like the unfurling of beauty as he moves towards his his the desire that he wants, which is to see the see the perspective to see the see the feminine from a perspective of like deep witnessing, and it's like, Fuck yeah. Don't take helicopters to the top of mountains. That's what that's what you should take from that. Is that a good example? I love that. That was incredible. I want to kind of wrap things up and wrap it up. But let's let's kind of bring some practice points for anyone listening. It's like, yes, I want to communicate more about sex, I want to stretch into the edges about sex life and start to explore some new things. I think one of the things he started to talk about at the beginning was the importance of having these conversations outside of an alive sexual experience. So having it out of the bedroom rather than during sex. Correct. And how, again, this is one of the reasons why we created the desire date, because, you know, it's important to some of these conversations again, can can be like edgy and like feel like a bit like nerve racking. And instead of having an in a moment, like being like, I want to be choked, like I as I said to you, and then it was like, Oh, that was a bit overwhelming to actually begin to have these kinds of conversations outside of the bedroom. So you can discuss like, would this be something you're into? This is something that really excites me, like, where and like you said, I think you said this in this episode, like calibrating. I know you learnt this from David data, he spoke a lot about like calibrating your desires. So if someone Yeah, wants to, you know, piece in the other person's mouth, and the other person has a note of that. It's like, okay, can you find almost like a middle point, or maybe not necessarily even a middle point, but a point in which you can meet somewhere where both of you are feeling like, yeah, this this, this feels this feels good. So like, for instance, if you share a desire and someone's like, Oh, I'm not there yet. They say that then it's like cool. There's a calibration opportunity here. We say calibrate because it's not a compromise. It's calibrating so you guys can go on the journey of exploring this desire from a place where you both feel safe to if someone's a hardener, hey, listen, I'm a no to that. Then there's no there's no opportunity to calibrate so that's where you would like be like, okay, cool. Like, why do you want to feel? Why would you like to do this? Like, what's the feeling that you know, what excites you about this? And you can like, see if you can shift from that specific desire to something else, a different desire that could potentially have you feeling the same way. But say for instance, and this is the one that I love. I was like, Oh, so you want to choke you? I come to you my love. And I say, hey, I want to hold you down by the throat and fuck you up the ass. And ironically, you would love that. But for instance, say that say that's like a wall. That's a lot for me. Well, that's a lot of them. Yeah. And like, I that that feels both exciting and nerve wracking. Right? So where can we actually start that you feel safe to explore? Is it just a finger in the butt? To start with? Or if that's too much, is it just actually circling around the entry point of the bond? Or is it actually that's too much? Can I just like kiss you on the cheek? Or even if that's too much, can we just have a few more conversations around, it's going to start having some more dialogue, and going back and forth. So you calibrate the desire to a point where you both feel safe to explore it. And that's the PC like safety. Because there's so much potential in a moment like this, when someone brings a desire that does have the other person feeling like a no, or maybe it's bringing things up. There's such potential for that to be such a moment of closure. And such a moment of potential shame, or just like shut down on both ends, perhaps, where the aim here or the intention here is, can we continue to open the moment, even when we're a no? Can we continue to play in curiosity? And that takes being so curious about like, I Okay, I'm a novice or not yet, like telling me more and, and being curious about maybe where that other person stands. And also, an important piece here is if you do bring the desire, you know, Jacob's got the desire to choke me and fuck me up the OS, and I am an am I'm like a not yet. If I feel he's like neediness for that, that's going to shut me down. And that's going to make me feel pressure. And that's going to I'm going to be feeling the expectation of that. So a big part of this. And again, we describe this in the desire desire data. And this is again, why we've created this experience. So you know, both of you are committed to holding this dynamic when you're having these conversations. But it's really important that if you're the one bringing the desire or when you bring desires that you're not wrapping them up in expectation, you're not being like oh, well you're no now but I want you to do it. Like I need you to do this. It's like I'm just offering this to the space this is something I really like. I'm just like gonna Yeah, feel it out the way that John Wineland another like great teacher on polarity and spiritual intimacy says can you bring your desire without need and love that so much so that your desire doesn't need to be wrapped in neediness, it doesn't need to be have this pressure behind it, it was pushing it with like, Okay, here's my desire. But behind it, there's this deep neediness of it having to happen for you to feel enough. It's like your that's your work there. neediness is your work, the desire is there for you to present and be seen in it. But the neediness that's for you to work on, that's for you to do your own practices and clear that and work on that deeply. And that's why I love that idea of like desire without need, feel safe for your partner to actually like, open to it. Yeah, and have a conversation with you. Totally. And I think just another piece I want to bring in this conversation is, if this does feel edgy, or whenever you have an edgy desire, you want to bring, oh, perhaps you're not even your communication around sex is like zero outside of the bedroom, but you want to start you know, creating a culture where you're talking about sex more, again, go and get the design date. Which will just make all of this so much easier. But I'm such an advocate for like, leading with vulnerability in edgy conversations. Even you did that so beautifully. Before when we had the example of you wanting to piss in my mouth, like you were like, This feels a bit. This feels edgy to share. This feels a little nerve wracking to share. Like, when we're able to bring that into the space. If that is our truth. Like if it does feel edgy to share something this is in and out of the bedroom. That just like really helps to soften the moment as well and already with our partner can feel a vulnerability. And so there is like our hearts are arriving in this space there. So yeah, that can just be really beautiful to always just like yeah, feel feel like it's possible to start a conversation in that way. Yeah, yeah. Like I always my my sayings like love goes first. Like if you have if you can feel it and it's coming through and like that, like love is love is a vulnerable act, it's risky. To put yourself out there like a desire that's in the shadows will eventually find its way out and it won't come out in a healthy way. So knowing that can you have the courage to bring it in a way that is conscious in a way that is in integrity and in a way that allows you to be to put it on the line to put yourself on the line you know, and really expose yourself in a way that like creates this like wow oh My goodness that me like, I get to feel you like that's when vulnerabilities online, your partner will feel you and no need. For me vulnerability breeds vulnerability as well. So that'll only create more depth in your relationship. But I truly believe that. Yeah. And one signle pace. Just one more thing, just one more thing. A question to bring in these conversations is, what am I making this mean? Especially if your partner shared a desire that feels repulsive to you were disgusting, or like, Oh, that's so dirty and wrong. And oh my gosh, like, I can't believe he or she wants that. It's so powerful to question like, What am I making that mean? He wants to choke me and fuck me up the ass. And I think he's like a dirty motherfucker for wanting that, like, what am I making that act mean? And a lot of this is then going to illuminate a lot of shame and sexual repression, and maybe, maybe religious trauma and all these different things that we are holding in our body, these beliefs that we were conditioned to carry around sex and around what we do with our body. Obviously, this is about like, you know, some of the sexual acts we're talking about need to be consensual, and they need to be of people of age, always. Yes. But if if they are both those things, your partner wants to do something consensual with people of age, like, yeah, there's, there's, there's space for you to, you know, look at what's that that's bringing up for you? Yeah, right. And that can be really illuminating. Again, it doesn't have to be a yes for you at all. But it's really important. If you want to be a very loving partner that's creating a safe healing space for your partner to really own what that's bringing up for you so that they can have a safe space where you're not projecting onto them. FARC Yeah, you can own your No, you can own your not yet you can own your Yes. And still have your partner the space to to express themselves without judgment. 100% Yeah. Anything else you want to bring? No, I just think this is like, I think I just want to reiterate to like, your relationship can be a really incredibly healing space. I know a lot of people that. And like a lot of the work that I do people really struggle, they're like, Oh, I just want to, I want a deeper connection. It's like, you have to be willing to like, expose yourself to deeply healing moments. If you want a deeper connection. If you're struggling to feel the intimacy with your partner, there's, there's there's going to be moments of vulnerability that feel very, very, very sensitive, and tender. And you must be willing to see these as like the beautiful, the beautiful healing moments that they are, you have to be willing, like a deeper connection requires you to reveal things that have not been yet revealed. So there's going to be healing, like with this stuff, there's going to be healing and you have to be willing to, to be patient to create safety to let go judgment and allow. Allow yourself the grace to, to, I guess, yeah, just just heal. As you as you deepen, heal as these desires come online. It's a beautiful, beautiful practice. Yeah, and like when we're stretching into new desires, or playing in our kinks, or BDSM, or just like, you know, expanding our sexual experiences. It's not just like, oh, yeah, we're gonna get off in different ways and experience more pleasure. Yeah. Amazing. And it's, it's healing, we're gonna meet new parts of ourselves. Yes, we're gonna have to be with shame and disgust and all these different things in order to have those experiences and this is why I truly believe the path of sex and the path of exploring, you know, more in our sex life is the path of expansion is the path of healing is the path of becoming more of ourselves as individuals and taking our relationship into deeper more evolved spaces. Yes. Oh, whoa, ah, whoa. Okay. We do it. We did it in 20 minutes longer than we said we would. As always, I said, Jacob, let's keep this to like 45 minutes. We never we never can be a one minute. We have one hour plus podcasters. Thanks for sticking with us, guys. So this is a yeah, go and check out the desire date. Yeah, go in if you've enjoyed this conversation, like you know, and we purposely set that as at a price where it was extremely accessible for people it's the value inside is insanely more than $27. Yeah, go and get it and yeah, and bring it to your relationship from that place of like, I'm curious, I want to get to know each other's desires better I want to I want to deepen with you and allow this thing to be the catalyst for you for intimacy to become your, your priority. And you can find that through this Yeah. Through the sharing of desires and then exploring them in a way that feels safe and consensual for the both of you. We love you lovers and We will see you next time. Bless up, bless up big love Talk soon. Bye please. Yo, yo, yo, thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of sex, love and everything in between. Now if you'd like to stay connected with Megan, ie you can head on over to Instagram and follow me at the Jacob O'Neill and where can people find you? lover@the.mag.oh amazing. And yeah, guys, check out the show notes for all the information in regards to what we've got coming up. And yeah, we're super super grateful that you guys for taking the time to listen in to this podcast. If you do have any topics or any questions, like I said, hit us up on Instagram and we'll see what we can do. Apart from that, have a beautiful, beautiful rest of your day. Thanks for being here. Big Big Love.